BREAKING NEWS OBAMACARE UPHELD!!!!!!!

[joe bloe]

We all go without cars like they do in Europe? Can't do that; we live in urban sprawl. Sell our houses and American dream and move int "middle class" projects?

The Dimos want as many people as possible living in big cities because people are easier to control when they live in a small area. They want everybody living in public housing, using public transportation, getting public healthcare, going to public schools and working for the government.

The Dimos believe they can create a Utopia, but it requires the ability of the government to control our lives. Socialized medicine is just one more brick in the wall.

[Laz]

Originally Posted by essence

$18K mortgage on a $150K house? That's more than 10%. Who is laughing?

If you include property taxes and insurance that number is probably close.

In San Antonio part of the property tax goes to fund the metropolitan health district which provides services to the uninsured. Does anyone think that tax will go away?

[CJ7]

Originally Posted by Laz

If you include property taxes and insurance that number is probably close.

In San Antonio part of the property tax goes to fund the metropolitan health district which provides services to the uninsured. Does anyone think that tax will go away?

property taxes will go away

a way up

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by joe bloe

American dream and move int "middle class" projects?

I see you're hoping to "move on up!"

[Sidewinder]

Originally Posted by wellendowed1911

You see guys whay people like Whirlaway, Marshall, COG(to a point) and Iaintlien fail to realize is that why the GOP were playing checkers- Obama was playing Chess. You see all along Obamacare is Romneycare. Until it became Obamacare...then it is evil. It worked in Mass and it will work nationwide.

Errr, no.

There was an interesting story some time back. A Democrat speechwriter, one of the guys who wrote speeches for politicians pushing Obamacare, talking about how good it would all be, moved from Washington DC, where he had very good, inexpensive, health insurance, to Massachusetts. He was OVERJOYED at the prospect of living somewhere that he could immediately reap the benefits of what he'd been helping sell, instead of having to wait a few years.

He promptly discovered that his health insurance premiums under Romneycare were going to be TWICE what he'd been paying in Foggy Bottoms.

He was last seen and heard crying long and loud about the unfairness of it all, how it wasn't supposed to work this way.

[Doove]

Originally Posted by Sidewinder

Errr, no.

There was an interesting story some time back.

Read that in an email, didja?

[Doove]

Olivia, first of all your numbers are hogwash, most significantly the amounts of taxes you have people paying. But i'm not here to nit-pick.

I'm here to give you a chance to earn yourself some bonafides.

How, exactly, would Hillary's plan have been an improvement?

And to help you out, i'll even provide as much of a refresher as a 10 second google search can provide.

http://healthinsurance.about.com/od/...ntonreform.htm

http://healthpolicyandmarket.blogspo...-clintons.html

Knock yourself out.

[essence]

I've lost it in all the trees, but can somebody dig out the figures telling us all:

- what position is the US compared with the rest of the world in general health care? Life expectancy etc. The must be WHO reports or something on that.

- what position is the US compared with the rest of the world in cost of health care, on average, per person? I mean a fully costed, comparable cost. Include everything (e.g. include prescription costs, charitable giving to charitable hospitals).

Once we have these figures, then can we ask the question whether there is a problem or not, and what the best remedy is.


These are a bit old (2000), but are the kinds of things I am after. US comes just below Costa Rica.

http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~wgreene/...P-Study-30.pdf

US is 37th on overall health performance, 72nd on level of health,

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf

My analysis of table 2 puts US 42nd rank on probability of males dying between 15 and 59.

Table 5 on life expectancy puts US at 24th (and UK at 14th - could do better).

Table 8 has expenditure for US as 13.7% of GDP, $4187 per capita (WOW!!!). In comparison UK per capita is $1303, switzerland $3564, sweden $2456, germany $2713. UK lags behind other major european countries, at least in 1999.

I wish I could find more recent figures.

Do you think there is a problem?

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by Laz

Congress cannot use the commerce clause to do anything they want.

Apparently, ...

.... Congress can repeal a tax with a 51% vote, but not legislation based on commerce.

Thanks Judge Roberts.

[Guest050715-1]

Can you stop with the lezzie crush thingie? I’m not into women. If a health care plan doesn’t give immediate and complete access medical services to anyone that wants it for free then it’s not the right plan. If the plan limits access, isn’t immediate and taxes the poor then I’m really against it.

OK doove, WE, Sexyexcentric, CJ or anyone else that wants to pat themselves on the back for this bill. Here you go. THE BILL ISN’T LIBERAL ENOUGH IN SOME AREAS AND TOO OVERREACHING IN OTHERS IT DEFIINATELY ISN’T LIBERAL ENOUGH TO HELP THOSE THAT REALLY NEED THE HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

Do you or any of the other good liberals even know what is legislation that is now the law of the land? Where, WHERE does it say that health care is being provided for free for anyone that opts for it? Where? I’ll wait.

Personally, I do not believe health care is a right. I believe it is the duty out of common decency of the better off to provide for the comfort, shelter, food and education of those that cannot afford it. Providing health care in the end game helps those providing the support in the long run anyway if you want to look at it from a purely hawkish, cold standpoint.

Not Liberal Enough:

• ALL AMERICANS SHOULD HAVE ACCESS TO UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE COVERAGE FOR FREE IF THAT’S WHAT THEY CHOOSE BECAUSE THEY CANNOT AFFORD PRIVATE HEALTH CARE INSURANCE . PERIOD. THE END.
• This bill doesn’t do that. It provides continual customers for the insurance, pharma and medical industries.
• My numbers aren’t hogwash. That is what it costs to live.
• If you live below the benchmark of 400% of the FPL but above the Medi-care cutoff you have to pay 4%.
• If you are poor, or the working poor, you just don’t have the money to spend and you shouldn't be subject to jail, a fine or a choice between shelter or pleasing Obama's and all the do-gooder's egos.
• The tax should be placed on those that can afford it not the poor and working classes.

Too Overreaching:

• So, who’s willing to bet on how much the new agency will eat up in federal dollars that will mandate and crawl into ALL THE BUSINESSES IN THE COUNTRY to ensure that the NEW, WHO KNOWS WHAT IS REALLY IN THE MINDS OF THE BUREAUCRATS THAT PLAN TO INTERPERATE what they THINK is in the bill?
• It’s going to cost big industry money to comply with the whatevers and to hire people to wade through all the bullshit regs.
• It’s going to cost smaller industry more money because they are smaller and don’t have the infrastructure to spread the cost across.
• Many employees will have their hours reduced to part time so business can get out from under the new law and dump the new costs on the now, hours-cut, part-time employees.
• You clearly don’t own your own business or you’d know about the new agencies new probe coming your way.

• Originally Posted by Jackie S

  Whirly, here is the reality.
  
  Many small business's, such as mine, have to furnish a full benefit package to employs in order to keep them. Highy skilled craftsmen are not cheap. It does a business no good to devote years into training key personel only to have them leave for greener pastures the minute their skills allow.
  
  Since we have to furnish health care to our employs, where is the downside to having the Government help out, especially since it is now mandated.
  
  My accountant has reviewed this thouroughly, and in his opinion, we might be able to recoup as much as 60 percent of our health care cost through the various tax encentives and rebates that the government is offerring for the sole purpose of allowing businesses under 25 employs to furnish Health Care and not go broke doing it. At this time, our group policy is costing me about 120,000 a year. Now, in the grand scheme of things, that might not be much, but if I could recoup 60 percent, that is money in my pocket.
  
  Where is the downside? Of course, it will be a subsidy, but I don't make the rules.

  Not that Jackie’s an oligarch, but, as with many things, he has a good grasp on the arithmetic of the law.
• This law was a complete sell out to the puppeteers in industry that own the bullshit politicos. It’s called fascism.

This election isn’t going to be about the 15% of Americans un or underemployed, the economy overall, the War/s, real health care, immigration, Supreme Court / federal judge nominations, nothing. Not even lefty Bush II blaming and rightie gay marriage issues are going to take on any importance, because Obama and his bullshit law have found something even more derisive to split a dangerously divided country even farther. Pat yourselves on the back for being good liberals that have done the usual unintended harm.

Originally Posted by CJ7

repeal the Bush tax cuts and offset the heathcare costs ...

or


since the billions of dollars the medical profession gouges Medicare for will be stopped, that $$ will offset the costs

This dogmatic bullshit is going to get us where? Why can’t both sides be wrong? Why can’t the people in the middle – the bulk of Americans – be considered? Because the lunatics are in charge of the nut house.

Originally Posted by essence

28% tax?

Geez, you should come to socialised Britain and pay 21% tax (including health care).

All the Yank saying aside, as I understand it, you’re an American no matter how much that disgusts you.

Originally Posted by essence

$18K mortgage on a $150K house? That's more than 10%. Who is laughing?

$150,000 sale price with 10% down - $135,000 at 5%, 30 year fixed is $955 / month P and I
Insurance - $200 / month with no riders
Taxes at least in Texas – $2,500
Comes to $16,360 Pretty close for what you and doove would call a WAG I’d say.

Originally Posted by CJ7

dear olivia

feel free to bitch about Part D and the billions of dollars its costing taxpayers too.

What? I do have super powers, but I can’t read your mind.

Originally Posted by LexusLover

Apparently, ...

.... Congress can repeal a tax with a 51% vote, but not legislation based on commerce.

Thanks Judge Roberts.

And that’s the fucking scary part. See above about overreaching and unintended consequences.

[SweetKimberly]

Humanitarianism surpassed corporate greed. It's a beautiful day in America. I'm so tired of listening to conservatives complain about being FORCED to buy health insurance. Does that mean you would rather not have access to medical care and would rather die? A country is only as strong as it's weakest citizen.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that insurance companies have a 600% profit margin? Do you realize that they are the one's who choose what procedures will or will not be covered? They are your infamous "death panels". They decide who will live and who will die. You pay in every month and if you have a good insurance company (if there is such a thing) they will put gold in your teeth and a pacemaker in your heart even if you don't need it. And you conservatives LOVE them.

Conservatives are missing a very important part of the equation. For example: I am obviously self employed. I make a nice living. I can easily afford to pay a monthly healthcare PREMIUM. I have been declined by 19 insurance companies because of a pre-existing condition which is hypothyroidism....which 30% of the population has. I dream about having healthcare and there are millions of American's in my situation. If myself and the other millions of uninsured each made a payment every month for healthcare don't you think that will lower the overall cost of healthcare dramatically?

If I get into a major accident or a terminal illness I will be treated in a government run hospital. Who pays for it currently? That's right....YOU! You already are "FORCED" to pay for other people's healthcare with your taxes!!!! It's going to be less expensive for you in the long run with the new bill. Do you know why? Because I, and millions like me, will be able to pay for healthcare ourselves and will no longer be denied by insurance companies.

The economy is going to start to thrive again. Right now people are FORCED to be in a job they hate just for the health coverage. Many people even work in a different field than their degree just to have access to healthcare. Now American's don't have to worry about losing their home or retirement if they get in a major accident or develop a terminal illness. People will no longer be imprisoned by their health care provider. New businesses will start, people will be less stressed and more productive and creative. We can start to compete with other countries again.

Yes. Everyone will have to pay in. And yes John Robert's did amend the bill to make it a "tax" so it will be constitutional. God bless his soul. It's still going to be cheaper than what you are paying in now. However you will be treated for what you need not what the insurance company dictates what you can be treated for. There will still be battles with those against it and it will be a long struggle. But the war has been won. It's a victory for America!

[Laz]

Originally Posted by SweetKimberly

Humanitarianism surpassed corporate greed. It's a beautiful day in America. I'm so tired of listening to conservatives complain about being FORCED to buy health insurance. Does that mean you would rather not have access to medical care and would rather die? A country is only as strong as it's weakest citizen.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that insurance companies have a 600% profit margin? Do you realize that they are the one's who choose what procedures will or will not be covered? They are your infamous "death panels". They decide who will live and who will die. You pay in every month and if you have a good insurance company (if there is such a thing) they will put gold in your teeth and a pacemaker in your heart even if you don't need it. And you conservatives LOVE them.

Conservatives are missing a very important part of the equation. For example: I am obviously self employed. I make a nice living. I can easily afford to pay a monthly healthcare PREMIUM. I have been declined by 19 insurance companies because of a pre-existing condition which is hypothyroidism....which 30% of the population has. I dream about having healthcare and there are millions of American's in my situation. If myself and the other millions of uninsured each made a payment every month for healthcare don't you think that will lower the overall cost of healthcare dramatically?

If I get into a major accident or a terminal illness I will be treated in a government run hospital. Who pays for it currently? That's right....YOU! You already are "FORCED" to pay for other people's healthcare with your taxes!!!! It's going to be less expensive for you in the long run with the new bill. Do you know why? Because I, and millions like me, will be able to pay for healthcare ourselves and will no longer be denied by insurance companies.

The economy is going to start to thrive again. Right now people are FORCED to be in a job they hate just for the health coverage. Many people even work in a different field than their degree just to have access to healthcare. Now American's don't have to worry about losing their home or retirement if they get in a major accident or develop a terminal illness. People will no longer be imprisoned by their health care provider. New businesses will start, people will be less stressed and more productive and creative. We can start to compete with other countries again.

Yes. Everyone will have to pay in. And yes John Robert's did amend the bill to make it a "tax" so it will be constitutional. God bless his soul. It's still going to be cheaper than what you are paying in now. However you will be treated for what you need not what the insurance company dictates what you can be treated for. There will still be battles with those against it and it will be a long struggle. But the war has been won. It's a victory for America!

Insurance companies make a good profit which is why they are in business. However 600% is ridiculous.

Most of your other points could have been handled better through alternative methods but the most important change that needs to occur is that insurance should only be there to cover large expenses. Routine medical care should be paid directly by the customer. That will bring the cost of health care down where insurance will keep the cost high.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Laz

. Routine medical care should be paid directly by the customer. That will bring the cost of health care down where insurance will keep the cost high.

I agree that the customer should shoulder part of the payment. You have to have skin in the game to control costs.

[Guest050715-1]

Originally Posted by SweetKimberly

Humanitarianism surpassed corporate greed. It's a beautiful day in America. I'm so tired of listening to conservatives complain about being FORCED to buy health insurance. Does that mean you would rather not have access to medical care and would rather die? A country is only as strong as it's weakest citizen.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that insurance companies have a 600% profit margin? Do you realize that they are the one's who choose what procedures will or will not be covered? They are your infamous "death panels". They decide who will live and who will die. You pay in every month and if you have a good insurance company (if there is such a thing) they will put gold in your teeth and a pacemaker in your heart even if you don't need it. And you conservatives LOVE them.

I agree with every word so why should insurance companies be put in charge of national health care? Do you actually think the death panels the insurance companies have now will change now? The insurance lobby has already demonstrated they have bought and paid for our politicians.

Clearly it’s not the conservatives that love them. The Democrats are the ones that wrote into law guaranteed customers and guaranteed that if those customers don’t pay they will pay a tax and could go to jail.

Originally Posted by SweetKimberly

Conservatives are missing a very important part of the equation. For example: I am obviously self employed. I make a nice living. I can easily afford to pay a monthly healthcare PREMIUM. I have been declined by 19 insurance companies because of a pre-existing condition which is hypothyroidism....which 30% of the population has. I dream about having healthcare and there are millions of American's in my situation. If myself and the other millions of uninsured each made a payment every month for healthcare don't you think that will lower the overall cost of healthcare dramatically?

Congress could have passed and Obama could have passed a law making it illegal to turn someone down because of a pre-existing condition any time they wanted to. You could also go get on a group insurance plan like the National Association of the Self-Employed. You can’t be denied because of pre-existing on a group plan.

Do you honestly think that anything the government gets into is going to experience cost savings? Also, could be that the system is flooded by millions of Americans and the system can’t handle it. Who knows, but my money is on this being a gigantic black hole that does nothing but suck money into it.

Originally Posted by SweetKimberly

The economy is going to start to thrive again. Right now people are FORCED to be in a job they hate just for the health coverage. Many people even work in a different field than their degree just to have access to healthcare. Now American's don't have to worry about losing their home or retirement if they get in a major accident or develop a terminal illness. People will no longer be imprisoned by their health care provider. New businesses will start, people will be less stressed and more productive and creative. We can start to compete with other countries again

A, see above. Pre-existing conditions for group plans was changed years ago by, I believe, the Clinton Administration for the reason you stated above. It’s not right to force people to stay at jobs they hate.

Obamacare turning this one way ticket to economic hell into a boon for the economy? No way. I’ll go on the record saying because it is a money pit it will do nothing but harm the economy.

Originally Posted by SweetKimberly

Yes. Everyone will have to pay in. And yes John Robert's did amend the bill to make it a "tax" so it will be constitutional. God bless his soul. It's still going to be cheaper than what you are paying in now. However you will be treated for what you need not what the insurance company dictates what you can be treated for. There will still be battles with those against it and it will be a long struggle. But the war has been won. It's a victory for America!

Yes, God bless his little soul. You do realize that the way the law is written a truly fair, single payer system, is now no longer an option.

You like so many others have literally no idea what is in the bill and the unintended consequences, but unfortunately the uninformed are going to suffer as much as the informed.

[Doove]

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

Can you stop with the lezzie crush thingie?

When you stop with the lezzie crush.

Originally Posted by OliviaHoward

Clearly it’s not the conservatives that love them. The Democrats are the ones that wrote into law guaranteed customers and guaranteed that if those customers don’t pay they will pay a tax and could go to jail.

False false false, a thousand times false. This is becoming a recurring and troubling theme with you lately. You really need to get it together, Olivia.

http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/1890...sal-healthcare

With the healthcare bill, I can go to jail for not having the minimum level of insurance.

This is unequivocally, without a doubt, false.

As Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in the Supreme Court's majority opinion, "The Act … bars the IRS from using several of its normal enforcement tools, such as criminal prosecutions and levies."

You like so many others have literally no idea what is in the bill and the unintended consequences, but unfortunately the uninformed are going to suffer as much as the informed.

And you've not said one word about how this is any different than what Hillary was proposing. Not that i expect you to, because the bulk of it is essentially the same. Meaning, you voted for the damn thing. You know it, i know it, and we both know why you now hate it.