What kind of economy do you want?

[London Rayne]

You two get a room lol.

[Rudyard K]

Originally Posted by Naomi4u

Are you fucking kidding me?

So being black and not being born with a silver spoon is a handicap?

Don't fret Naomi. This is the same guy who couldn't imagine a job worth having that did not require an advanced degree from one of his liberal elitist schools.

He likes to act like he is for the common man. But he can't help but consider them to be...well, uh, common.

[London Rayne]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

Don't fret Naomi. This is the same guy who couldn't imagine a job worth having that did not require an advanced degree from one of his liberal elitist schools.

He likes to act like he is for the common man. But he can't help but consider them to be...well, uh, common.

DAYUM!

[DFW5Traveler]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

So much to comment on I hardly know where to start. First, I think that Rudyard K's characterization of the left and right's view of wealth is almost cartoonish and highly inaccurate. I don't see the left "xpressing disdain for the wealthy" in the main. In fact, I think that the left wing these days in wealthier than those who vote right wing. But I think that those on the left are more acutely aware of 1) how much more skewed the distirbution of wealth has become in this country over the past 30 years; and 2) believes that a great deal of that has been driven by government policy. As a result of the second factor, they are more willing to use the power of the government to remedy the situation.

As for London's view that anybody other than the old, the handicapped, and children who are not a success have no one to blame but themselves, I find that notion laughable. The environment into which a person is born is incredibly important. It's not by my good works that I was born to two college educated parents (neither of which were the first in their family to go to college). It's not my hard work that cased me to be born with a good mind. It was completely unrelated to any effort on my part that my parents worked very hard to educate me at home from the ages of 0 - 6 to make sure that when I started to school, I would be way ahead of my classmates. The fact that I was born white and male also was to my good fortune. I had a huge leg up on 90% of the other kids before I had ever set foot in a school. All I had to do was not fuck it up.

What about those who were born to illiterate parents, who attended segregated schools, who were abused, or who had not positive role models, etc. It would be a very, very rare individual who would come from that melieu who could accomoplish what I have accomplished in my life. People who break their arms patting themselves on the back seem to forget these sorts of things. Government has a role to play in helping those people.

LOL!!! What about the rich libs who have disdain for other peoples money, but their own. Such as Michael Moore who made 20M on one movie and who filed another suit for more, because he really "doesn't" like money...

[TexTushHog]

Originally Posted by Naomi4u

Are you fucking kidding me?

So being black and not being born with a silver spoon is a handicap?

Yes, I believe that I was afforded substantial opportunities that African Americans were not. I attended segregated public schools until the seventh grade. The schools for African Americans were given fewer resources; on average had less well educated teachers; and were generally inferior to the white schools. When the schools in my town were integrated, African Americans experienced hostility from some teachers, principles, and others in authority, not to mention substantial numbers of students. Likewise, my parents had attended all white public schools that had similar advantages to my schools, just as my African American classmates had parents who had attended all black schools with similar problems as the ones their kids attended.

Many of the black kids I went to school with did well despite these horrible handicaps. However, quite a few did not do so well. Of the kids in my HS class of 450 or so, four of us became lawyers and two became a doctor. None of those were black. About ten became accountants. One of those was black. Yet a bit over one half of our graduating class was black. So I think despite the very strong efforts of many African American classmates, they were still handicapped by their background, their parents background, and the historical discrimination that our society practiced against them and their families.

Does any of this surprise you?

[Guest053011]

Originally Posted by London Rayne

I disagree that education and health care are a human right if you tossed your life in the toilet. Why should other people foot the bill for someone who decides to be lazy or irresponsible? As I said, if you are a child, a senior, mentally or physically handicapped, this would not apply to you but I have no sympathy for laziness and people who think the world owes them something.

Why do you think when a liver transplant list is made, the people who have abused alcohol to get to that point are last? It's because there are children who never made that choice, that are also on that list. I am not saying I don't believe people deserve a second chance but a woman who keeps having kids just to get another check, is not what I would call handicapped. Her children deserve a better life for sure.

And those that didn't toss their life in a toilet ? Shelters are full of good people hit by cruel circumstance. The idea that they all fucked up somehow is a sad stereotype. My mother didn't choose illness. I didn't choose my parents. Should I and my mother have been left to starve on the streets? Who is fit to be the judge? What looks like laziness on the surface may be a lot more when someone takes the time totalk to them and understand what happened.

I always found it interesting when believing Christians make these arguments, as their own faith makes it clear they are indeed their brother's keeper. (not a direct comment to u LR)

I believe no civilized society let's their citizens go without the basics of life. If you cannot value human life and dignity, what separates you from beasts? Compassion is part of what separates from animals.

[TexTushHog]

Originally Posted by DFW5Traveler

LOL!!! What about the rich libs who have disdain for other peoples money, but their own. Such as Michael Moore who made 20M on one movie and who filed another suit for more, because he really "doesn't" like money...

Again, I guess you don't know many rich liberals. They don't hate wealth, although most don't think it should be easily inherited in large amounts with out some taxation. They don't hate those who make lots of money. Many of them make lots of money themselves. They are just concerned with the huge government driven redistribution of wealth that has occurred over the past 30 years. And they think that if times are tough, that those to whom much has been given should be taxed more to balance the books.

Likewise, they think that markets are good things, but that they are not flawless and sometimes need help (especially to internalize external costs). Likewise, they believe that economics is a value free science and that while it can answer the question of which outcome is Pareto optimal, it can't answer the question of which outcome is most just. Therefore, sometimes, interfering to some degree with market mechanisms is justified.

As for RK's knock on my views on education, I make no apologies for it. Both my parents have multiple college degrees. Their education served them well. I have a professional degree and it has served me well. My two kids are getting an Ivy League higher education -- one in law the other in medicine -- and I expect it to serve them well. But there is nothing wrong with higher education. I'm a firm believer in the value of it. Ive never met anyone who had too much education.

[London Rayne]

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

And those that didn't toss their life in a toilet ? Shelters are full of good people hit by cruel circumstance. The idea that they all fucked up somehow is a sad stereotype.

'

Lauren you need to learn to read seriously! Where did I say anything about people in shelters? I didn't, so don't put words in my mouth. If you did not choose to be there and were a victim, then that's not what I am talking about. Why does it always feel like I have to break things down on a first grade level for some people? Geez!

If you don't know what I am saying, don't just jump to conclusions and start talking trash. ASK! When I say people who tossed their life away, I mean just that. People who had every oppurtunity to make something of themselves yet didn't because they were too lazy.

I did not say anything about hard working people who might have been a part of a natural disaster such as an earth quake or a hurricane did I? NO! I also did not say anything about women who were left with 3 kids and no support by some scum bag dad, and are scared to death. Same with illness...never said a thing about that! I am talking about lazy people plain and simple. If you need further elaboration, I feel sorry for you because it's plain enough.

As for the Brother's Keeper thing...Um God helps those who help themselves dear, but you're not really Christian so I can see how you would not know that. God is also a crutch for many people as an excuse to just "wait on the lord."

[Guest053011]

It doesn't matter if people are in shelters, low income housing or any other circumstance.

There are a LOT of good people in need - kids born to terrible parents in poor circumstances, good parents who loose their jobs and then their homes. Women escaping abusive husbands. People who have been taken advantage of and left broke. People suddenly hit with illness and bankrupted by treatment. There are a lot of sincere people left devastated by life

My point is, people in need of help aren't always substance abusers or lazy. There are as many reasons for desperation as there are desperate people. To assume people deserve it neglects their individual experience, it's a stereotype that leaves good people who want to improve their lives without the little push they need to do so. The only way to determine the truth if why someone is where they are is for a case worker to examine their individual circumstance.

I was raised by a devoutly Christian family - bible classes and all. Jesus made it quite clear that compassion was the road to salvation - it's why he chose to surround himself with poor, desperate and despised people.

[London Rayne]

WTF...that is what I just said!! Are you high? I did not say that I ASSUME all poor people are lazy. I said Lazy people in general who ARE FREAKING LAZY! Is this hooked on phonics night in D&T or something? WOW!

Jesus also said, "Sin no more" if you expected that salvation, so we won't go there ha ha. Being compassionate and enabling are two different things. Look it up. He helped those who were willing to walk away from being broken down and lazy and enter a life of expectancy through faith. He gave them the tools to, ready for it....HELP THEMSELVES!!

[Guest053011]

Originally Posted by London Rayne

WTF...that is what I just said!! Are you high? I did not say that I ASSUME all poor people are lazy. I said Lazy people in general who ARE FREAKING LAZY! Is this hooked on phonics night in D&T or something? WOW!

Jesus also said, "Sin no more" if you expected that salvation, so we won't go there ha ha. Being compassionate and enabling are two different things. Look it up.

The duscussion is the general approach of a society to it's citizens - where people said fend for yourself. If you can't make it, too bad, so sad.

I'm not picking your argument apart, I'm saying as a general philosophy for a society to be unwilling to have constructs in place to help citizens in need, is in my *opinion* uncivilized.

A robust economy should consider the welfare if even it's poorest classes.

I don't think a humble roof and enough food to survive enables. No one in need if assistance should have luxury. I believe the saying is Beggars can't be choosers lol

[London Rayne]

Ok for the sake of sanity, whatever. Trying to get my point across to you is like talking to a damn rock lol.

If it makes you feel better why not give half of your Mistress money to someone in need every week dear...or was that my brother's keeper thing just for commentary?

[Guest053011]

Originally Posted by London Rayne

Ok for the sake of sanity, whatever. Trying to get my point across to you is like talking to a damn rock.

If it makes you feel better why not give half of your Mistress money to someone in need every week dear...or was that my brother's keeper thing just for commentary?

Actually I give a significant amounts to help people in need, as I came from abject poverty, I feel it is my duty to return the kindness society showed me.

I find people react to hardship in one of two ways - they become selfish, angry and cold, or they are keenly aware of the suffering of others and feel impelled to help.

[DFW5Traveler]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

Again, I guess you don't know many rich liberals. They don't hate wealth, although most don't think it should be easily inherited in large amounts with out some taxation. They don't hate those who make lots of money. Many of them make lots of money themselves. They are just concerned with the huge government driven redistribution of wealth that has occurred over the past 30 years. And they think that if times are tough, that those to whom much has been given should be taxed more to balance the books.

Likewise, they think that markets are good things, but that they are not flawless and sometimes need help (especially to internalize external costs). Likewise, they believe that economics is a value free science and that while it can answer the question of which outcome is Pareto optimal, it can't answer the question of which outcome is most just. Therefore, sometimes, interfering to some degree with market mechanisms is justified.

As for RK's knock on my views on education, I make no apologies for it. Both my parents have multiple college degrees. Their education served them well. I have a professional degree and it has served me well. My two kids are getting an Ivy League higher education -- one in law the other in medicine -- and I expect it to serve them well. But there is nothing wrong with higher education. I'm a firm believer in the value of it. Ive never met anyone who had too much education.

You didn't listen to the michael moore video did you? "All the money in the country is a natural resource, it belongs to everyone." ( pp ) Of course, his money is his money, but if you believed in that lard ass, that money you made as an attorney belongs to all of us. And you sir are the greedy rich, who will take the money off the backs of the clients you take on and then run for another country to spread the wealth in a country that didn't give you the opportunity to make that amount of money.

[Ansley]

Originally Posted by London Rayne

'
Lauren you need to learn to read seriously!

Why does it always feel like I have to break things down on a first grade level for some people? Geez!

If you need further elaboration, I feel sorry for you because it's plain enough.

Originally Posted by London Rayne

Are you high?
Is this hooked on phonics night in D&T or something? WOW!

Originally Posted by London Rayne

Trying to get my point across to you is like talking to a damn rock.

Originally Posted by London Rayne

but you're not really Christian

After reading all the things you just said to Lauren, I don't think you have any room to judge who a Christian is.