Women in Combat ...

[Arverni]

Women aren't as stupid as men are. Seriously, we are willing to do stupid shit just to prove what kind of men we are. Because we aren't as important to the gene pool collectively as women are - we have some self-destructive tendencies.

I'm not a Navy SEAL - but every one that I've met (and it's been a lot) has told me that, in order to make it through the basic training you have to make up your mind to either PASS or DIE in the attempt. If there's any recognition in your mind that quitting is an option you WILL ring the bell.

Also - I had to man Visit, Board, Search and Seizure (VBSS) teams in the Persian Gulf. On my ship - the team had no women but I had plenty of women aboard the ship in other jobs. They asked me if women were banned from VBSS? I told them ... "No, I'll put any woman on that team who qualifies but I haven't received a single volunteer". Invariably - all of the women asking this question weren't willing to volunteer for themselves but one day - I got a gal who did.

And she passed the physical requirements and I put her on the team.

Well, she went on her first mission ... which lasted a week, and we seized and boarded (and seized - by authority of the UN) a cargo ship loaded with contraband. She had to board that ship and remain aboard until we got it to the UN holding anchorage - which took a week because this ship was heavily damaged and rotting and couldn't go more than 2 knots.

When she returned from that mission - she asked me if she could quit the VBSS team. I asked her why and she told me that the head (toilet facilities) on that confiscated ship were so unsanitary - and beyond cleanup - that the corpsman put the facilities off limits and declared them a bio-hazard to personnel. This COMMON on middle eastern ships - they are nasty in just that way. She told me she had to shit into a paper plate on the fantail of the ship and toss it over the side.

Her quote ... "I'm willing to get shot at - but I'm not defecating into a paper plate. The men can put up with that - not me."

So ... women also don't like NASTY. They like to be clean. I took her off the team - no problem since it was a voluntary team.

I know that's anecdotal, and the plural of anencdote is no "data" - but ... you know.

[Shadowbeast666]

I understand the point you’re trying to make OHD, however, as I’m sure there are a FEW women who could handle the physical requirements, the point I was trying to make was that genetically most women do not have the physical capability in comparison to males. If that were the case, and if women REALLY wanted to play on the same field as men, nothing would be divided in ‘male requirements’ and ‘female requirements’. There would be 1 military standard; [either lower the standard for men (which will never happen) or raise the bar for women to compete on the same standard as the men.] Female Olympic athletes don’t compete against the men regardless of the fact that they are superior athletes in their own right, so why do we, as a society allow that, if in fact, women can do anything a man can do? You never hear women complaining that they don’t get the chance to compete against the men in the Olympics. A 125 pound woman just does not have the same strength to weight ratio (in almost every case) as their male counterpart, that’s just the fact of the matter.

A man at 6’ who weighs 150lbs still has a 25lb advantage over the 5’6”, 125lb female. If you ever wrestled, boxed or competed in something where physical stature was a primary factor in winning or losing, you know that 25lbs can be a HUGE advantage. I don’t know about the Marines but any of those small, skinny guys in Army Infantry basic training were fed 2 portions at every meal to MAKE THEM gain weight. You were not allowed to be too small or too big, hence why the physical fitness requirements are what they are. There were some guys that failed out of Infantry basic due to they just did not have the physical genetics to perform on the level required. The same for the ‘fat boys’… they got fed half portions so they would lose weight, gain muscle, built their stamina or they too were out, it was that simple. Keep in mind that Infantry basic is not remotely the same as basic training for any other job in the Army.

Female fighter pilots or helicopter pilots are still ‘combat’ jobs and many women have out-performed many of their male counterparts in those roles. In these types of ‘combat’ roles, I say hell yes, if the women can do it as good or better than a man, then by all means, have at it. BUT those roles are not so heavily based on physical stature. (Although I know you can’t be some powder-puff to be a fighter pilot because it is very strenuous and physically demanding)
Age Group Gender Push-Ups Sit-Ups 2-Mile Run
17 - 21 Male 35 47 16:36
Female 13 47 19:42
22 - 26 Male 31 43 17:30
Female 11 43 20:36
Age Group Gender Body Fat
17 - 20 Male 20%
Female 30%
21 - 27 Male 22%
Female 32%

You see how the female requirement is almost 300% less than the male standard for the upper body strength evaluation? Why is that?, because women are genetically weaker in respect to upper body strength than males. Science knows this…we all know this. Women are evaluated on a different scale than men because they ARE ‘different’ in regards to their physical capabilities, regardless of how hard they work out, regardless of how much heart or determination they have. It’s a matter of genetic physiology.

110 lbs is 88% of 125lbs
110 lbs is 49% of 225lbs

Meaning that proportionality(in this specific scenario) a female is going to be required to carry roughly 40% more weight than a man, and you can’t lower that weight number because that is the standard load.(Albeit, I suppose the basic ruck load has changed since I was active duty) That is the same weight ratio as that 225lb man being required to carry a 200lb load. Very few, if any, of the guys I was with including myself could have ever pulled that off. I know I can’t carry 88% of my bodyweight on a 10-25 mile road march, let alone any extensive length of distance over uneven, rough terrain. I can however, carry 49%, which is no cake-walk either.

The same scenario happened with fire departments years ago, which is why you see very few, if any, female fire-fighters. They can’t lift a 100+ pounds of hose and gear and haul it up 5 flights of stairs, drop the hose and carry a 150lb dummy back down the stairs in the allotted amount of time so the women complained that it was unfair and tried to demand that the fire departments lower the physical fitness requirements for women so they could pass the tests.

Hey, any women that can physically and mentally hang with me in a combat situation is more than welcome to, just don’t ask to have the standards by which I was judged to be lowered just so you can say you’re ‘equal’. Women are wonderful and as I said before, serve an invaluable, crucial component of the military, I just believe that we shouldn’t be trying to manipulate sociological perception that women are capable of doing anything a man can do in regards to combat roles where physical genetics plays an enormous role in whether or not people die.

As for the bathing aspect…I can tell by your posts that you aren’t so naïve as to believe that a woman bathing in front of 70+ guys isn’t going to eventually end 'badly'. Badly in the respect that a sexual harassment suit, or who knows what other kind of legality nightmare would eventually come to pass. I could write another page on this topic alone, but trust me when I tell you that putting a woman in the midst of 70+ Infantry guys who haven’t seen nor smelt the beauty of a women for 45+ days is equivalent to cutting the legs off a bunny and tossing it into a pit of starving wolves and then screaming at the bunny to “RUN LITTLE BUNNY!!!”…I’m just sayin’…

[Arverni]

As for the bathing aspect…I can tell by your posts that you aren’t so naïve as to believe that a woman bathing in front of 70+ guys isn’t going to eventually end 'badly'.

I've done some movie work and had to get naked for wardrobe in front of - once, three young and hot women. We were in a hurry though to get me fitted so it was no big deal. They saw all the goods and I'm like ... "Fuck it we gotta get this shit done". So I went along with it. I was very thankful that I work out a lot though ... so it wasn't too embarrassing."

I wouldn't attack a girl in an army shower standing next to me naked. I wouldn't gawk at her either. I would try my best to ignore her but I'm thinking that just knowing she's naked in the shower only a few feet from me ... is going to produce a very visible indication to her that I'm "interested".

That would be embarrassing!! It might also be grounds for sexual harassment? dunno.

Army wives? Well they are dead set against women in combat for reasons you can guess.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Hangtime

During WW II, or the Great Patriotic War, as it is known among the Russians, women served throughout all areas of the military, including as snipers, in the infantry, and in the air forces. Some of these women were as young as 16.

The Russian soldier who placed who placed their flag atop the Reichstag in the Battle of Berlin was a woman. (By the way, there were 400,000 Russian casualties in the Battle of Berlin, and over a million German women, of all ages, raped during and after the battle.)

Russian woman fought in Stalingrad, where at the height of the fighting, the average life span for a Russian soldier was less than 24 hours. (The Battle of Stalingrad lasted from September 1942 to January 1943.)

Russian women flew old biplanes to attack the Germans at night when they were less vulnerable to German fighter aircraft; they were referred to by the Germans as the "Night Witches," and they were greatly feared.

The examples of women as fighters are countless throughout time, one of the last great Viking leaders, was a woman, and she was renown for her cunning and ruthlessness.

Sure no woman wants to be captured and tortured, just as no man does, but that really is not the point. We should all be treated as equals, fit for any job, regardless of race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, disability, or whatever factor is used to separate us, as long as we meet the physical, mental, emotional, or other criteria needed to perform the job. Life is difficult enough without us erecting random, artificial barriers that make it even harder.

Only the good old boys, who are worried about the blow to their egos and machismo, have any fear of this. The same was true when these same good old boys opposed the civil rights movement, or giving women the right to vote, or letting gays serve in the military, or letting woman work in law enforcement, or so on throughout history; small minds always have, and always will, fear change. And, that's just crazy, because the only constant in life is change.

Now... let the flaming begin!

Unknown hundreds of women subordinated their sexuality and served in battle alongside their husbands, brothers, etc., during the Civil War. Another example is Cathay Williams who enlisted in 1866. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathay_Williams

[ilovedatass]

Sorry, I left out a branch of the armed forces...