businesspeople who classify employees as contractors are assholes

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by themystic

That aint happen yet IB. My company has been offering those jobs at great wages and they arent being filled by what you really mean. " white People". If you think these illegals are working cheap, you're wrong. At least in the construction industry they arent

It's fundamentally obvious that you have failed to raise those wages high enough, or you would have had workers pouring out of your ears. It sure as hell worked for Henry Ford. Ford paid well above market value to insure he had a stable and efficient work force, and he, his company and his workers prospered (Ford also paid for his workers' education to learn to read English so that they could read and understand instructions and procedures; hence, a more efficient work force).

BTW, are you calling me a racist, themystic? If you are, that would sure as hell be a direct personal insult in violation of this forum's rules, the mystic.

[themystic]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

It's fundamentally obvious that you have failed to raise those wages high enough, or you would have had workers pouring out of your ears. It sure as hell worked for Henry Ford. Ford paid well above market value to insure he had a stable and efficient work force, and he, his company and his workers prospered (Ford also paid for his workers' education to learn to read English so that they could read and understand instructions and procedures; hence, a more efficient work force).

BTW, are you calling me a racist, themystic? That would sure as hell be a direct personal insult in violation of this forum's rules, the mystic.

No IB Im not calling you a racist. If you review my past communication with you, I have cut you more slack than anyone. Even when you were spewing hateful remarks to me every time you responded, ( before the moderators made the change). Remember I was Misfit, The Mistake and a number of names? I just laughed about it. I thought you were brilliant, and comical Im just saying your wrong. BTW wasn't Henry Ford about 100 years ago? Things have changed. Also we do offer English classes to our employees. Your just out of touch with the current labor force. Thats not an insult. Just please do lighten up

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by themystic

No IB Im not calling you a racist. If you review my past communication with you, I have cut you more slack than anyone. Even when you were spewing hateful remarks to me every time you responded, ( before the moderators made the change). Remember I was Misfit, The Mistake and a number of names? I just laughed about it. I thought you were brilliant, and comical Im just saying your wrong. BTW wasn't Henry Ford about 100 years ago? Things have changed. Also we do offer English classes to our employees. Your just out of touch with the current labor force. Thats not an insult. Just please do lighten up

Nothing's changed about capitalism. Ford realized he needed to pay more to draw and retain a quality work force. That fundamental principal hasn't changed. Raise your wages until it works.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Nothing's changed about capitalism. Ford realized he needed to pay more to draw and retain a quality work force. That fundamental principal hasn't changed. Raise your wages until it works.

Or do like Apple and build your factories overseas.

That Capitalism is a funny thing...

But I'm scratching my head on what this has to do with the OP. Did Ford use contract labor?

[friendly fred]

Originally Posted by Jackie S

Social Security, and who pays it, is the big issue.

I have (former) friend that had a fairly larger construction company for decades. The specialty was new housing slabs and framing.

Over the years, the majority of his labor was sub contract. That means he did not pay the required Social Security on the huge amount of wages paid out, he relied upon the sub contractor to take care of it.

Most were illegal residents and paid nothing. The SS administration and IRS finally took a look. Most of the sub contractors could not be found, so guess who is in hot water.

This man is the same age as me, 72. He owes hundreds of thousands of dollars.

They are playing hardball with him. He might even do time.

It is unfortunate that your friend is in this situation but everyone needs to pay their fair share.

[friendly fred]

Originally Posted by themystic

That aint happen yet IB. My company has been offering those jobs at great wages and they arent being filled by what you really mean. " white People". If you think these illegals are working cheap, you're wrong. At least in the construction industry they arent

If the supply of illegal foreign labor was curbed sufficiently, and these illegal "contracting" jobs were classified correctly, the equilibrium market wage would rise until legal citizens were enticed to work.

Everyone knows it to be true, but they just don't want it to crimp their own business.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by WTF

Or do like Apple and build your factories overseas.

That Capitalism is a funny thing...

But I'm scratching my head on what this has to do with the OP. Did Ford use contract labor?

Like every successful capitalist, Ford used contractors and employees.

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Like every successful capitalist, Ford used contractors and employees.

not all companies are/were like Ford. Ford put his self-interest ahead of his business.


most owners or CEOs don't care to do that unless they can be shown that this model is successful and can work for their business.

[themystic]

Originally Posted by friendly fred

If the supply of illegal foreign labor was curbed sufficiently, and these illegal "contracting" jobs were classified correctly, the equilibrium market wage would rise until legal citizens were enticed to work.

Everyone knows it to be true, but they just don't want it to crimp their own business.

So what type of wages would it take for the following jobs. I'm not talking about owning these companies. I'm talking about being an employee for them, just a few examples. Just curious, because in Texas I have listed below are at least 80% or more Mexican or Central American workers

1. Mowing the grass, yard worker
2. Being a Maid at a Hotel
3. Maid- as in cleaning your house
4. Unskilled construction labor
5. Busboy in Restaurant
6. Food Service
7. Picking crops, farming
8.

There are lots of good paying construction jobs that are not being filled by legal workers. It aint because the Mexicans are stealing them. They are open to anyone willing to apply for them

[friendly fred]

Originally Posted by themystic

So what type of wages would it take for the following jobs. I'm not talking about owning these companies. I'm talking about being an employee for them, just a few examples. Just curious, because in Texas I have listed below are at least 80% or more Mexican or Central American workers

1. Mowing the grass, yard worker
2. Being a Maid at a Hotel
3. Maid- as in cleaning your house
4. Unskilled construction labor
5. Busboy in Restaurant
6. Food Service
7. Picking crops, farming
8.

There are lots of good paying construction jobs that are not being filled by legal workers. It aint because the Mexicans are stealing them. They are open to anyone willing to apply for them

It would be nice if the free market paid $15 per hour plus benefits for those jobs, to legal American workers, obviously of any race.

[Jackie S]

I would venture a guess that in the third largest metro area in the US, Houston, if you go on any construction site, whether it be a road crew, housing, shipyard, fabrication, etc that 90 percent of the work force will be Hispanic.

Why is this?

One of the big fears of President Trump's "Bring Manufacturing Back To America" initiative is he may discover than the majority of young whites would rather flip burgers.

[friendly fred]

Originally Posted by Jackie S

I would venture a guess that in the third largest metro area in the US, Houston, if you go on any construction site, whether it be a road crew, housing, shipyard, fabrication, etc that 90 percent of the work force will be Hispanic.

Why is this?

One of the big fears of President Trump's "Bring Manufacturing Back To America" initiative is he may discover than the majority of young whites would rather flip burgers.

Could it be the Hispanic contractors discriminate against whites?

[grean]

Originally Posted by friendly fred

I think a business should have severe penalties for purposefully misclassifying employees to skirt employment law.

It is unfair to American workers and honest competitors.

How very liberal of you.


Temps & contrators gives businesses a competitive edge. Companies couldn't grow as well if they had to turn down jobs because they didn't have the labor capacity to fill.

Forcing them to absorb employment costs for x number of employees would simply drive down the economy because they wont hire people if that's their only option.

It would be better to turn down the job than hire more people only to have to lay them off after the job.


And it's unlikely to have a great effect on curbing illegal alien employment.

[nevergaveitathought]

Friendly

I'm with you

but the savings for the incorrect treatment can also be to the employee

although being treated as an "independent" contractor does place both halves of the social security and medicare taxes on the person who should have been treated as an employee

but now the employee receiving a 1099 in lieu of a W-2 (and just accepting the 1099 at face value). gets all sorts of tax deductions against that income

like mileage for example. ordinary mileage just getting to work becomes some sort of business deduction, reducing both the income tax and the self-employment tax

other "business" deductions are available limited only by association and imagination

self employment medical insurance now becomes a tax deduction

the new 20% reduction of net income from business is now available.

reduce income enough via deductions etc and now you might get the earned income credit and really make out

not to mention the market place health insurance subsidies due the "contractor" who can reduce income to the point his health insurance is next to nothing

of course IRS rules and court cases look at the word "Control" to see if someone is really an employee, tempered with historical industry practice

but the IRS is like a cop catching speeders, they get one out of every 1000, if they try to go after the individual

they want to go after the employer

but I think if you get caught as an employer theres a lot of wiggle room to just go forward with the forced change and nothing on the past transgression or at most 1 year

but properly classifying employees yields an even playing field, and proper tax collection and a much steadier help with the social security and medicare funds

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by Jackie S

Social Security, and who pays it, is the big issue.

I have (former) friend that had a fairly larger construction company for decades. The specialty was new housing slabs and framing.

Over the years, the majority of his labor was sub contract. That means he did not pay the required Social Security on the huge amount of wages paid out, he relied upon the sub contractor to take care of it.

Most were illegal residents and paid nothing. The SS administration and IRS finally took a look. Most of the sub contractors could not be found, so guess who is in hot water.

This man is the same age as me, 72. He owes hundreds of thousands of dollars.

They are playing hardball with him. He might even do time.

he most likely didn't issue 1099's nor have records regarding form I-9

I think if you have issued all required 1099's etc (if you pay some $600 or more in a year you issue one) and the social security number is valid

then most times the IRS will limit the taxes due to the previous year

he probably had a lot of transgressions including the hiring of illegals as you mentioned