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Rudyard K · 09-26-2010, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainMidnight

I know a guy who travels to Israel regularly. His succinct observation:

We look for weapons (and often in an almost comically clumsy, ham-handed manner).

The Israelis look for terrorists.

LOL...that all sounds well and good. I agree that the little old lady walking with her cane ain't a high risk. But the Israeli system does not do anything to protect individual rights. I also agree there is no inherant right to fly. So, the plan does not necessarly need to be right protecting. But if we are going to give credence to the thought that every law abiding citizen has the right to fly...regadless or race, creed, national origin, religion, etc (or whatever other shit there is)...then I think the things the TSA does are pretty good. Not perfect...but pretty good.

OTOH, if we want to ban all arab looking folks from flying...I guess that is OK with me...cause I ain't arab looking. But I'm gonna get a bit more testy when they start banning all boot wearing Texans from flying.

pjorourke · 09-26-2010, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainMidnight

I know a guy who travels to Israel regularly. His succinct observation:

We look for weapons (and often in an almost comically clumsy, ham-handed manner).

The Israelis look for terrorists.

Word!! The dorks we have working for TSA couldn't find a terrorist if they were wearing a billboard that said "TERRORIST" with flashing lights and an arrow pointing at them.

charlestudor2005 · 09-26-2010, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

But I'm gonna get a bit more testy when they start banning all boot wearing Texans from flying.

Guess those of us from Texas who don't wear boots will still get a pass.

pjorourke · 09-26-2010, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

Guess those of us from Texas who don't wear boots will still get a pass.

Yup, both of you.

Texas Contrarian · 09-26-2010, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjorourke

The dorks we have working for TSA couldn't find a terrorist if they were wearing a billboard that said "TERRORIST" with flashing lights and an arrow pointing at them.

Wearing such a sign might be a clever technique for a real terrorist. A typical TSA employee would probably figure it's just a decoying technique and go after the 89-year-old great grandmother from Des Moines with even more vigor than usual!

atlcomedy · 09-26-2010, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

Agreed.

Several years ago, a lady wrote an article for one of the Sunday magazines that are distributed with newspapers. Don't remember which one, but it made an impression on me.

Seems she was going through an Israeli airport customs area, and while standing in line, she struck up an innocuous conversation with a guy who was next in line. Unbeknownst to her, every member of the line was under surveillance. When she got to the front of the line, she was ushered into a separate room, and was "cross examined" by the Israelis regarding the conversation: who started it, what it concerned, what she thought of the other person in line, where did he come from, had she ever met him before, did she know him, what did he say about his traveling, etc.

It is definitely a different kind of screening. And we could learn a lot from it.

The practice DHS has made of hiring minimum wage screeners, and subjecting all passengers to the same screening only defeats the screening process. If we in the US want to ensure security in the air, it's NOT with the current system. It's with an intuitive system that works on many levels, and uses professionals who are well trained in seeing what is meant to be unseen.

Quite frankly, there is an argument to be made against the establishment of TSA at all. First of all, hijacking of airplanes is not an everyday occurrence. If I remember correctly, prior to 9/11 a hijacking had not occurred in the US for more than 10 years. And since 9/11 it has been a decade w/o a hijacking in the US. And, despite DHS/TSA sticking its chest out and saying it is because of their screening measures, I really don't believe it. There are ways to get weapons (or even WMDs) on planes if a person is intentional about it, and was determined to hijack a plane. I don't think DHS/TSA can take the credit because I don't think their screening is that effective.

Second, the cost benefit analysis (although I haven't done it) would probably fail.

Third, in Israel, there's a reason for them to have this kind of security in place. Here, not so much, I don't think.

In any event, Ans, you make a very good point.

We have a very reactive system. Post 9/11 there was panic. The outcome was hiring a not so small army of low paid, low skilled workers. Workers that didn't have a law enforcement or security background. Literally applicants applying to the TSA were also applying to retail & fast food companies for entry positions.

If you follow the argument that, at least within a sector, pay correlates with skill/resposibility we shouldn't be surprised with the results we get. We have one of our most important security targets guarded by the law enforcement equilivant, pay-wise, of meter maids and below that of dog catchers.

Not suggesting you pay the current folks more, just making an observation (sorry RK, I can't come up with a solution this AM

)

Lovely Victoria · 09-26-2010, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camille

I'm guessing refusing a scan and being passed over for a patdown isn't go to fly.
C

I don't recall which airport it was (they all run together when you are rushing), but I was given an option of a full body scan OR a pat down. I chose the scan. If the Agent was cute, I might have opted for a pat down.

charlestudor2005 · 09-26-2010, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lovely Victoria

I don't recall which airport it was (they all run together when you are rushing), but I was given an option of a full body scan OR a pat down. I chose the scan. If the Agent was cute, I might have opted for a pat down.

A cute TSA agent...isn't that an oxymoron (or is it just a moron?)?

pjorourke · 09-26-2010, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

A cute TSA agent...isn't that an oxymoron (or is it just a moron?)?

If its TSA, its the later.

DFW5Traveler · 09-26-2010, 12:50 PM

DHS/TSA was another boon-doggle govt growing program adopted under the Patriot Act. It needs to go away. There are so many other ways to secure the airports that don't include cronyism, aka, Chertoff.

Hell, I have a great low tech idea that would blow full body scanners out of the water @ 1/20th the cost, but my name isn't chertoff, et.al.

John Bull · 09-26-2010, 01:10 PM

The minimum wage, non-English speaking Somali's that work at my local airport wouldn't be able to read the sign that said TERRORIST.

charlestudor2005 · 09-26-2010, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DFW5Traveler

Hell, I have a great low tech idea that would blow full body scanners out of the water @ 1/20th the cost, but my name isn't chertoff, et.al.

Actually, while I'm not much of a fan of Chertoff, if he is behind the scanners, I think it is more indicative of Republican administrations than anything else. IMHO, the administration under Bush never saw a private corporation contract to do government business that it didn't like. The growth of private corporations doing government functions has become pretty ubiquitous. Witness Blackwater. Halliburton. Shaw. Fluor. And a zillion others. Even TSA has contracted private entities at certain airports to perform the TSA function. Sheeet, I didn't know private industry could find such inept help.

charlestudor2005 · 09-26-2010, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Bull

The minimum wage, non-English speaking Somali's that work at my local airport wouldn't be able to read the sign that said TERRORIST.

I'm stunned they got such a low paying job. I figured they be driving taxis. There's more money in it.

Camille · 09-26-2010, 01:20 PM

between the US and UK. In the UK airports there are armed police. Not hand guns either...well, I'm sure most of you have seen them. They are dotted about so that you are aware they are there..but they don't create a feeling of panic. My next door neighbour in England was an armed officer for the airport near us..and they underwent rigorous surveillance training. They are looking for the odd "unseen" behaviour. In 2007 when I was flying back from England, the entire terminal was evacuated because they had seen a man acting suspiciously. It took 6 of them to control over 2000 of us..and no-one got out of hand. They told us where to stand (outside carpark) made us get behind a line that was clearly marked on the floor and were VERY clear at saying anyone who passed that line would be at best arrested...at worst shot if they refuse to stop. We knew what their job was and how rare this type of evacuation was so no-one (airlines included) complained. In US airports, the only time I see a police officer, it's a trooper outside asking people to move their cars along.Why?

charlestudor2005 · 09-26-2010, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camille

between the US and UK. In the UK airports there are armed police. Not hand guns either...well, I'm sure most of you have seen them. They are dotted about so that you are aware they are there..but they don't create a feeling of panic. My next door neighbour in England was an armed officer for the airport near us..and they underwent rigorous surveillance training. They are looking for the odd "unseen" behaviour. In 2007 when I was flying back from England, the entire terminal was evacuated because they had seen a man acting suspiciously. It took 6 of them to control over 2000 of us..and no-one got out of hand. They told us where to stand (outside carpark) made us get behind a line that was clearly marked on the floor and were VERY clear at saying anyone who passed that line would be at best arrested...at worst shot if they refuse to stop. We knew what their job was and how rare this type of evacuation was so no-one (airlines included) complained. In US airports, the only time I see a police officer, it's a trooper outside asking people to move their cars along.Why?

There are armed LE in my airport, but I live on the border. So, at the entrance to the concourse, I go through screening from TSA, Border Patrol, and there's always a local cop standing nearby.

For some reason, there seems to be reluctance in the US to have armed LE show automatic weapons. I don't know if they exist behind closed doors, or if they're afraid if they were carried, someone would grab one and do a lot of damage to innocent persons.