Welcome to ECCIE - Sign up today!

Carl · 04-13-2012, 10:32 AM

I'd be interested in finding out whether or not "Stand Your Ground" laws also indemnify an individual from civil liabilities. After all, OJ was acquitted of murdering Nicole Simpson and Ronald Goldman but was still successfully sued for their wrongful death in civil court. Even if Zimmerman is found not guilty, criminally, in the death of Martin that would not seem to be a barrier to Zimmerman being found legally and financially responsible for a chain of his own bad decisions which ultimately led to Martin's death. I seem to recall that the level of burden of proof in a civil matter is that the defendant "probably" was at fault and not "beyond a reasonable doubt." If so, even if he avoids a life sentence in the big house he might still wind up with a life sentence in the poor house. That would serve the dumb bastard right.

RouterJockey · 04-13-2012, 01:03 PM

There are two important aspects that I see in this case.

1. If Zimmerman was afraid for his life, one could make the argument that he placed himself into that position of his own will. If someone with a gun began to follow me I would be afraid for my life, and would react with deadly force if I thought that this person meant me harm. If this is the case, then the young man was justified to react with deadly force and one could make the case that Zimmerman was justified as well. However, Zimmerman created the situation to begin with...should he not be held to some type of accountability for creating the situation?

2. He called 911 and they told him not to follow the young man. In my mind, when he decided to not follow that advice from a figure of authority he becomes responsible for the actions that take place from that point forward. I do not think that this is murder 2 and is more likely manslaughter (assuming that I have a basic understanding of the difference).

It is a shame that the press is working so hard to judge this case in the public. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in court.

Sabor · 04-13-2012, 07:46 PM

I see it like RouterJockey, this situation was created by a vigilante with pipe dreams of glory that sadly ended with a dead teenager.

nuglet · 04-14-2012, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabor

I see it like RouterJockey, this situation was created by a vigilante with pipe dreams of glory that sadly ended with a dead teenager.

I don't believe that. He'd been doing this "patrol" thing for quite some time. He had previous opportunities if he just wanted to be a wild west hero. Not that he didn't have ego issues (like most "patrols"), but makes no sense that he didn't shoot someone a long time ago.. or... maybe he did.. or.. did he?

F-Sharp · 04-14-2012, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by northaustincouple74

First the media reports that a slang racist term was used by Zimmerman...an audio expert discredits this assertion.

Whoever "discredited" this needs to get their ears checked. "Fucking Coons" is a clear as a bell to my hearing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNI5CA5jijw

Incidentally, carrying a weapon and following "suspicious characters" are both violations of Neighborhood Watch rules. This guy was without question looking for trouble and Trayvon was guilty of nothing more than being black at night.

nuglet · 04-14-2012, 11:40 AM

that TV "announcer" has less credibility than Rush Limbaugh. Hell, their own transcription doesn't even come close to showing what he is actually saying.. and HE is preaching to "listen very closely". It's folks like him that are at the root of much of the unrest in this country. Read the captions as he's talking.. it's like two different conversations..

F-Sharp · 04-14-2012, 01:23 PM

Who the hell cares about the announcer or the captions? Listen to the 911 call! Or perhaps you need to get *your* ears checked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuglet

that TV "announcer" has less credibility than Rush Limbaugh. Hell, their own transcription doesn't even come close to showing what he is actually saying.. and HE is preaching to "listen very closely". It's folks like him that are at the root of much of the unrest in this country. Read the captions as he's talking.. it's like two different conversations..

northaustincouple74 · 04-14-2012, 01:26 PM

Here is a link to the "enhanced" audio for those interested.
http://www.alan.com/2012/04/05/audio-experts-zimmerman-word-on-tape-was-punk-not-racial-slur/

For whats its worth it sounds like c**ns in the original version to me as well.

Regardless of whether or not Zimmerman is a racists should that have any bearing on the interpretation of the law? When i consider the case i keep coming back to a single question in my mind...does being a racist preclude you from defending yourself if you believe your life is in peril?

For instance if I'm a member of the KKK, watch American history X twice daily and jack off to images of the swastika does the law not provide the same protection under the so called stand your ground defense if my life is endangered by a black person?

Inversely if I’m a member of the black panthers, watch the show cops so I can see some drunk white guy get the shit kicked out of them by a cop, and jack off to posters of Jesse Jackson am i also not afforded protection under the same aforementioned laws if a white person endangers my life?

To dovetail onto that thought I also believe the notion of stiffer penalties for “hate crimes” to be a sad misguided attempt to stem racism. Why is a white persons murder less heinous when murdered by a fellow white person? Similarly why is a black persons murder less heinous when murdered by a fellow black person? How does it make sense to value a persons life more or less in terms of sentencing based on the color of the person who ended it? Just makes no sense to me.

F-Sharp · 04-14-2012, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by northaustincouple74

For whats its worth it sounds like c**ns in the original version to me as well.

Regardless of whether or not Zimmerman is a racists should that have any bearing on the interpretation of the law? When i consider the case i keep coming back to a single question in my mind...does being a racist preclude you from defending yourself if you believe your life is in peril?

You can take Zimmerman's racial remarks out of it and he's still guilty. Zimmerman's life was AT NO TIME "in peril". This is evidenced by the lack of medical attention or hospitalization. Getting your ass kicked by a 17 year old is not reason enough to shoot and kill someone.

How many of us have ever punched someone on the face or been punched? Does that mean that we should have all been shot and killed for it? I don't happen to believe Martin just started wailing on Zimmerman either, no doubt he was provoked by something Zimmerman did or said, and I have no doubt it was Martin that was fearful of his like, not Zimmerman.

Ask yourself this, if Martin happened to be a white kid walking down the street in an Izod shirt, would we even be talking about this? No. Ask yourself another question. How many of YOUR kids dress less than "preppy"? Does how your kids dress give cause to someone like Zimmerman to harass them for doing nothing more than walking down the street at night?

nuglet · 04-14-2012, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

Who the hell cares about the announcer or the captions? Listen to the 911 call! Or perhaps you need to get *your* ears checked.

Oh yeah brainiac.. I forgot.. "it's on the internet".. that's all the proof needed. pfft My hearing is fine thank you.

northaustincouple74 · 04-14-2012, 01:56 PM

F-Sharp, you are absolutley correct in your assertion that i quoted below (I havent bothered to figure out how to use the quote system on this site.)

"Ask yourself this, if Martin happened to be a white kid walking down the street in an Izod shirt, would we even be talking about this? No."

Thats the sad truth about this mess. If Martin was white the story would not be considered "news worthy" by most outlets. Similairly if Zimmerman was black it also would not be news worthy. The sad fact is its only deemed newsworthy because two different races were involved and with that the media can stoke peoples fear and anger involving racism. Had it been two guys of the same race i dont think any non local media outlet would of covered the story.

Sabor · 04-14-2012, 01:58 PM

To "patrol" by yourself at night is dumb, it should always be done in pairs. To tail a "suspect" when 911 told you not to is dumb.

Zimmerman should have announced that he is neighborhood watch instead of following Martin, if someone kept tailing me on an empty street at night I would be looking for the nearest pipe, brick, stick or rock. There is a reason many patrollers wear an orange vest, they are there to deter crime, not to arrest criminals.

SpeedRacerXXX · 04-14-2012, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuglet

I don't believe that. He'd been doing this "patrol" thing for quite some time. He had previous opportunities if he just wanted to be a wild west hero. Not that he didn't have ego issues (like most "patrols"), but makes no sense that he didn't shoot someone a long time ago.. or... maybe he did.. or.. did he?

Nuglet, maybe this is the first time Zimmerman was ever confronted by one of the people he was following. To be honest, if I was innocently walking through a neighborhood and knew someone was following me, for whatever reason, I would be pissed and very possibly confront the guy too.

SpeedRacerXXX · 04-14-2012, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by northaustincouple74

Regardless of whether or not Zimmerman is a racists should that have any bearing on the interpretation of the law? When i consider the case i keep coming back to a single question in my mind...does being a racist preclude you from defending yourself if you believe your life is in peril?

FWIW, I totally agree. I am white and don't look at as really racial, although a black kid in a hoodie does fit certain stereotypes. And I certainly agree that if Zimmerman's life was in peril, as he contends, he has the right to defend himself. The HUGE question is whether or not his life was in peril.

F-Sharp · 04-14-2012, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuglet

Oh yeah brainiac.. I forgot.. "it's on the internet".. that's all the proof needed. pfft My hearing is fine thank you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah Nuglet...we get it. It's easier for you to just doubt the authenticity than it is for you to do your own research in fear it might prove to be correct.

Fox News 101.