Trump

[Munchmasterman]

Thank you for not contesting trump is a liar.

If he lied under oath that would meet your criteria.
But I didn't bring up impeachment. I brought up trump loosing re-election.

I don't understand how you can still support him. The sheer volume of lies, that are easily proven, is huge. And it doesn't merit mentioning by the majority of posters.
No mention at all. But y'all believe everything he says.

Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

thank you valued poster.


by the way, which of those is an impeachable offense? according to Saint Mueller that is ....
.

[Munchmasterman]

You didn't argue my point either.

But of course you had to say something.
Just a "blistering" reply that concedes the post.
Thanks for your insight.

Originally Posted by Hotrod511

[The_Waco_Kid]

Originally Posted by Munchmasterman

Thank you for not contesting trump is a liar.

If he lied under oath that would meet your criteria.
But I didn't bring up impeachment. I brought up trump loosing re-election.

I don't understand how you can still support him. The sheer volume of lies, that are easily proven, is huge. And it doesn't merit mentioning by the majority of posters.
No mention at all. But y'all believe everything he says.

well that depends yeah sport? first what "lie" are ya talking about?
name one.


oh and as long as you are morally right facts don't matter.


Sandy from the Bronx said so.

Originally Posted by Munchmasterman

You didn't argue my point either.

But of course you had to say something.
Just a "blistering" reply that concedes the post.
Thanks for your insight.

Uh .. you made a point????

are we playing darts u cheeky little sausage?


BAHHAAAAA

[Munchmasterman]

Name one? How can you ask that?

The facts always matter to me. Why would you think they didn't.
Name a time. Name a time I gave a shit about what sandy had to say.




Trump lies. A very small % of them



When Congress sought documents from President Barack Obama, the White House "didn’t do anything. They didn’t give one letter of the request. Many requests were made. They didn’t give a letter."

Pants on fire.



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...er-any-docume/



"The Democrat(ic) position on abortion is now so extreme that they don’t mind executing babies AFTER birth."

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ing-democrats/



Says former Sen. Harry Reid "got thrown out."

Pants on fire





https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...own-out-offic/





Says Gov. Ralph Northam "stated that he would even allow a newborn baby to come out into the world... then talk to the mother and talk to the father and then execute the baby."

False



https://www.politifact.com/virginia/...would-execute/



"We are not even into February and the cost of illegal immigration so far this year is $18,959,495,168. Cost Friday was $603,331,392. There are at least 25,772,342 illegal aliens, not the 11,000,000 that have been reported for years, in our Country."

— Donald Trump on Sunday, January 27th, 2019 in a tweet

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...t-illegal-imm/



Says there’s "never (been) so many apprehensions ever in our history."

— Donald Trump on Thursday, January 10th, 2019 in remarks in McAllen, Texas

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...r-been-so-man/



"When I say Mexico is going to pay for the wall, that's what I said. Mexico is going to pay. I didn't say they're going to write me a check for $20 billion or $10 billion."

— Donald Trump on Thursday, January 10th, 2019 in a roundtable at the border

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...uld-write-che/



California’s deadly wildfires "would never happen" with "proper Forest Management."

— Donald Trump on Wednesday, January 9th, 2019 in a tweet

False



https://www.politifact.com/californi...-claim-califo/



"At the request of Democrats, it will be a steel barrier rather than a concrete wall."

— Donald Trump on Tuesday, January 8th, 2019 in a televised speech

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-donald-trump/



"The reason Russia was in Afghanistan was because terrorists were going into Russia."

— Donald Trump on Wednesday, January 2nd, 2019 in in a discussion with reporters

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...n-facts-wrong/



Says troops recently received "one of the biggest pay raises" ever, and that it was the first pay increase in "more than 10 years."

— Donald Trump on Wednesday, December 26th, 2018 in remarks to U.S. troops

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...g-size-timing/



"Russia, Iran, Syria & many others are not happy" about U.S. troops leaving Syria.

— Donald Trump on Thursday, December 20th, 2018 in a tweet

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...us-troops-are/



Says 19,000 text messages exchanged between former FBI officials that were "purposely and illegally deleted ... would have explained (the special counsel investigation) hoax."

— Donald Trump on Tuesday, December 18th, 2018 in in a tweet

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...erately-erase/



Says of immigrant family separations at the border, "we had the exact same policy as the Obama administration."

— Donald Trump on Sunday, November 25th, 2018 in a tweet

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...rations-were-/



"If you buy, you know, a box of cereal, if you do anything, you have a voter ID. … The only thing you don’t is if you’re a voter of the United States."

— Donald Trump on Wednesday, November 14th, 2018 in an interview with the Daily Caller

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...box-cereal-no/



"The Democrat plan would just obliterate Medicare and terminate Medicare Advantage ... seniors who have been paying for this for years (and) will not be taken care of anymore."

— Donald Trump on Friday, October 26th, 2018 in a campaign rally

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...t-obliterate-/



"Democrats let him (cop killer Luis Bracamontes) into our country," and "Democrats let him stay."

— Donald Trump on Wednesday, October 31st, 2018 in a tweet

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ats-let-cop-k/



"The Democrats want to invite caravan after caravan of illegal aliens into our country. And they want to sign them up for free health care, free welfare, free education, and for the right to vote."

— Donald Trump on Friday, October 26th, 2018 in a rally in North Carolina

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...nvite-migrant/



Says "Bob Casey voted in favor of deadly sanctuary cities that released thousands upon thousands of illegal alien criminals and vicious gang members to prey on Pennsylvania streets, to prey all over this country."

— Donald Trump on Wednesday, October 10th, 2018 in a rally in Erie, Pa

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ity-criminal-/



"Democrats oppose any effort to secure our border."

— Donald Trump on Wednesday, October 24th, 2018 in a campaign rally in Wisconsi

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-oppose-any-e/



Says he didn't cancel a political rally because after Sept. 11, "the New York Stock Exchange was open the following day."

— Donald Trump on Saturday, October 27th, 2018 in a rally in Murphysboro, Ill.

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...er-911-it-did/



"Many presidents don’t get the chance to put a Supreme Court justice on."

— Donald Trump on Wednesday, October 24th, 2018 in a rally in Mosinee, Wis

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...t-get-appoint/



Says a recent opioid bill that reached his desk had "very little Democrat support."

— Donald Trump on Friday, October 12th, 2018 in a rally in Lebanon, Ohio

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...get-much-demo/



In California, "they're rioting now" over sanctuary cities.

— Donald Trump on Saturday, October 20th, 2018 in a rally in Elko, Nev

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...people-riotin/



Saudi Arabia has ordered $450 billion, "$110 billion of which is a military order," producing "over a million jobs."

— Donald Trump on Saturday, October 20th, 2018 in an exchange with reporters

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...llion-saudi-o/



Says Democrats "want to give (undocumented immigrants) cars."

— Donald Trump on Saturday, October 20th, 2018 in a rally in Elko, Nev

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-cars-undocum/



"Every single Democrat in the U.S. Senate has signed up for the open borders, and it's a bill, it's called the ‘open borders bill.’"

— Donald Trump on Saturday, October 6th, 2018 in a campaign rally

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...en-borders-bi/



"Some of the Democrats have been talking about ending (coverage for) pre-existing conditions."

— Donald Trump on Thursday, October 4th, 2018 in a rally in Rochester, Minn

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...democrats-pre/



Says Republicans "just passed" the Veterans Choice program after 44 years of trying. "They've been trying to pass that one for many, many decades."

— Donald Trump on Monday, October 1st, 2018 in a midterm rally in Johnson City, Tenn

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ans-choice-af/



On investigating during the Supreme Court confirmation process, "The FBI doesn’t do that."

— Donald Trump on Tuesday, September 18th, 2018 in an exchange with reporters

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...gh-supreme-co/



Says 3,000 people "did not die" in two hurricanes that hit Puerto Rico. That death toll estimate was "done by Democrats."

— Donald Trump on Thursday, September 13th, 2018 in tweets

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ne-death-toll/



"We’re making (Medicare) stronger. We’re making Social Security stronger."

— Donald Trump on Wednesday, September 5th, 2018 in an exchange with reporters

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...rity-and-medi/



"Someone can write an article or book, totally make up stories and form a picture of a person that is literally the exact opposite of the fact, and get away with it without retribution or cost. Don’t know why Washington politicians don’t change libel laws?"

— Donald Trump on Wednesday, September 5th, 2018 in a twee

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...bes-libel-law/



Says Ohio Gov. John Kasich is "very unpopular."

— Donald Trump on Monday, August 13th, 2018 in a tweet

False



https://www.politifact.com/ohio/stat...mp-falsely-tw/



"U.S. Steel just announced that they are building six new steel mills."

— Donald Trump on Tuesday, July 31st, 2018 in rally in Tampa

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-donald-trump/



"Wow, highest Poll Numbers in the history of the Republican Party. That includes Honest Abe Lincoln and Ronald Reagan."

— Donald Trump on Sunday, July 29th, 2018 in a tweet

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...bers-any-gop-/





Says the Steele dossier "was responsible for starting" Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation into links between the Trump campaign and Russia.

— Donald Trump on Monday, July 23rd, 2018 in in a tweet

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...page-document/



"The Electoral College is much more advantageous for Democrats."

— Donald Trump on Monday, July 16th, 2018 in a press conference in Helsinki

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...toral-college/



"The servers of the Pakistani gentleman that worked on the DNC" are "missing."

— Donald Trump on Monday, July 16th, 2018 in a press conference with Vladimir Putin

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ladimir-putin/



"I have watched ICE liberate towns from the grasp of MS-13."

— Donald Trump on Saturday, June 30th, 2018 in a tweet

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...laimed-have-w/



Sen. Kamala Harris is "supporting the animals of MS-13."

— Donald Trump on Monday, July 2nd, 2018 in a tweet

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/californi...is-supporting/



"Watch those GDP numbers. We started off at a very low number, and right now we hit a 3.2 (percent). Nobody thought that was possible."

— Donald Trump on Thursday, June 28th, 2018 in a speech in Mount Pleasant, Wis

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...wth-his-watch/

"The European Union … they send us Mercedes, they send us -- by the millions -- the BMWs -- cars by the millions."

— Donald Trump on Thursday, June 28th, 2018 in a speech in Mount Pleasant, Wis.

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...t-cars-us-mil/



Says Wisconsin "hadn’t been won by a Republican since Dwight D. Eisenhower, in 1952. And I won Wisconsin. … Ronald Reagan, remember, Wisconsin was the state that Ronald Reagan did not win."

— Donald Trump on Thursday, June 28th, 2018 in a public forum

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/wisconsin...g-claims-abou/



"Crime in Germany is way up."

— Donald Trump on Monday, June 18th, 2018 in a twee

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...crime-germany/



Says that people "went out in their boats to watch" Hurricane Harvey.

— Donald Trump on Wednesday, June 6th, 2018 in a conference call about hurricane season

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/texas/sta...ir-boats-watc/



"We got $6 billion for opioid and getting rid of that scourge that’s taking over our country. And the numbers are way down."

— Donald Trump on Tuesday, May 29th, 2018 in a Republican rally in Nashville, Tenn

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...mbers-way-dow/



Speaking of immigration cases, says, "We have thousands of judges."

— Donald Trump on Thursday, May 24th, 2018 in a Fox &Friends interview

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ands-immigrat/



"The Failing @nytimes quotes ‘a senior White House official,’ who doesn’t exist, as saying ‘even if the meeting were reinstated, holding it on June 12 would be impossible, given the lack of time and the amount of planning needed.’ WRONG AGAIN! Use real people, not phony sources."

— Donald Trump on Saturday, May 26th, 2018 in a tweet

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...nt-exist-he-d/



A "horrible law" requires that children be separated from their parents "once they cross the Border into the U.S."

— Donald Trump on Monday, May 28th, 2018 in a tweet

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...rating-family/



Says James Clapper said "that the FBI was spying on (Trump's) campaign."

— Donald Trump on Wednesday, May 23rd, 2018 in a tweet

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-fbi-spied-tr/



A "catch and release" immigration policy "is a Democrat rule, Sherrod Brown, this is a Democrat rule."

— Donald Trump on Saturday, May 5th, 2018 in a speech in Cleveland

False



https://www.politifact.com/ohio/stat...-catch-and-re/



Says the 2018 defense authorization bill includes raises for the military "for the first time in 10 years."

— Donald Trump on Wednesday, May 9th, 2018 in remarks at the White House

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...pay-raise-10-/



"In seven years that (nuclear) deal will have expired, and Iran is free to go ahead and create nuclear weapons."

— Donald Trump on Monday, April 30th, 2018 in a press conference

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...r-deal-expire/



Says North Korea has "agreed to denuclearization."

— Donald Trump on Sunday, April 22nd, 2018 in a tweet

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...reed-denuclea/



"James Comey Memos just out and show clearly that there was NO COLLUSION and NO OBSTRUCTION"

— Donald Trump on Thursday, April 19th, 2018 in in a tweet

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ve-collusion-/



"In many places, like California, the same person votes many times. You probably heard about that. They always like to say 'oh that's a conspiracy theory.' Not a conspiracy theory, folks. Millions and millions of people."

— Donald Trump on Thursday, April 5th, 2018 in a speech in West Virginia

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ed-many-times/



"Only fools, or worse, are saying that our money losing Post Office makes money with Amazon. THEY LOSE A FORTUNE, and this will be changed."

— Donald Trump on Monday, April 2nd, 2018 in a tweet

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...osing-fortune/



"The state of California is begging us to build walls in certain areas. They don’t tell you that."

— Donald Trump on Tuesday, March 13th, 2018 in California just sued to stop the wall

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/californi...-begging-wall/



"Democrats are nowhere to be found on DACA."

— Donald Trump on Monday, March 5th, 2018 in a tweet

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...onald-trump-c/



"You take Pulse nightclub. If you had one person in that room that could carry a gun and knew how to use it, it wouldn’t have happened, or certainly to the extent that it did."

— Donald Trump on Wednesday, February 28th, 2018 in in a meeting

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...club-shooting/



"I never said Russia did not meddle in the election."

— Donald Trump on Sunday, February 18th, 2018 in a tweet

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-russian-medd/



At the State of the Union address, Democrats, "even on positive news … were like death and un-American. Un-American. Somebody said, ‘treasonous.’ I mean, yeah, I guess, why not? Can we call that treason? Why not?"

— Donald Trump on Monday, February 5th, 2018 in a speech near Cincinnati

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...about-treason/



The immigration visa lottery "randomly hands out green cards without any regard for skill, merit, or the safety of American people."

— Donald Trump on Tuesday, January 30th, 2018 in State of the Union address

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...bout-visa-lot/



"We enacted the biggest tax cuts and reforms in American history."

— Donald Trump on Tuesday, January 30th, 2018 in his State of the Union address

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ill-biggest-e/



"The ice caps were going to melt, they were going to be gone by now, but now they’re setting records, so okay, they’re at a record level."

— Donald Trump on Friday, January 26th, 2018 in an interview with Piers Morgan

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...end-backwards/

"Hillary Clinton and her campaign of 2008 started the birther controversy."

— Donald Trump on Friday, September 16th, 2016 in a speech

False



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...lary-clinton-/



Says of the diversity visa lottery program, "they give us their worst people, they put them in a bin," and "the worst of the worst" are selected.

— Donald Trump on Friday, December 15th, 2017 in a speech

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...erizes-divers/



"For years, they have not been able to get tax cuts -- many, many years, since Reagan."

— Donald Trump on Wednesday, November 29th, 2017 in a speech in St. Charles, Mo.

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...passed-reagan/



Ending the estate tax would "protect millions of small businesses and the American farmer."

— Donald Trump on Wednesday, September 27th, 2017 in a speech in Indianapolis

Pants on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...estate-tax-sm/



White nationalist protesters in Charlottesville "had a permit. The other group didn’t have a permit."

— Donald Trump on Tuesday, August 15th, 2017 in a question-and-answer session with reporters

Pant on fire



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...unter-protest/



"Study what General Pershing of the United States did to terrorists when caught. There was no more Radical Islamic Terror for 35 years!"

— Donald Trump on Thursday, August 17th, 2017 in a tweet

POF



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-about-gen-pe/



Amazon has a "no-tax monopoly."

— Donald Trump on Monday, July 24th, 2017 in Twitter

POF



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ld-trump-said/



CNN’s ratings are "way down."

— Donald Trump on Tuesday, June 27th, 2017 in a tweet

POF



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-are-way-down/



"This Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story. It's an excuse by the Democrats for having lost an election that they should've won."

— Donald Trump on Thursday, May 11th, 2017 in an interview with NBC New

POF



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...a-story-made-/



Before the presidential campaign, "I didn't know Steve (Bannon)."

— Donald Trump on Tuesday, April 11th, 2017 in media comments

POF



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...himself-wheth/



Terrorism and terrorist attacks in the United States and Europe have "gotten to a point where it's not even being reported."

— Donald Trump on Monday, February 6th, 2017 in a speech in Tampa, Fla

POF



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...g-terrorism-a/



"If Russia, or some other entity, was hacking, why did the White House wait so long to act? Why did they only complain after Hillary lost?"

— Donald Trump on Thursday, December 15th, 2016 in a twee

POF



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...hacking-probe/



There was "serious voter fraud" in Virginia.

— Donald Trump on Sunday, November 27th, 2016 in a tweet.

POF



https://www.politifact.com/virginia/...-claim-virgin/



There was "serious voter fraud" in New Hampshire.

— Donald Trump on Sunday, November 27th, 2016 in a tweet

POF



https://www.politifact.com/new-hamps...new-hampshire/



There was "serious voter fraud" in California.

— Donald Trump on Sunday, November 27th, 2016 in a tweet

POF



https://www.politifact.com/californi...nia-voter-fra/



Says he "won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally."

— Donald Trump on Sunday, November 27th, 2016 in a tweet

POF



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ns-illegal-vo/



Says that at a campaign rally President Barack Obama "spent so much time screaming at a protester, and frankly it was a disgrace."

— Donald Trump on Friday, November 4th, 2016 in a rally in Hershey, Pa.

POF



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...screamed-prot/



Says Hillary Clinton "wants to let people just pour in. You could have 650 million people pour in and we do nothing about it. Think of it. That’s what could happen. You triple the size of our country in one week."

— Donald Trump on Sunday, October 30th, 2016 in a campaign rally in Albuquerque

POF



https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...llion-people-/

Originally Posted by The_Waco_Kid

well that depends yeah sport? first what "lie" are ya talking about?
name one.


oh and as long as you are morally right facts don't matter.


Sandy from the Bronx said so.





Uh .. you made a point????

are we playing darts u cheeky little sausage?


BAHHAAAAA

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by Munchmasterman

You didn't argue my point either.

Have a cup of coffee or two.

FYI: If there's no "point," there is nothing to "argue"!

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by Munchmasterman

Thank you for not contesting trump is a liar.

Responding to SocialistLiberalAntiTrumpers is no "contest"! It is a waste of time.

[eccielover]

Originally Posted by Munchmasterman

Thank you for not contesting trump is a liar.

Most would not contest that all politicians lie(or if we are being politically correct in our statements like arguing over Spying compared to Surveillance) or more appropriately mislead to get the their message or point across. In that vein Trump is right up there with any other politician.

Citing politifact is nearly laughable, especially the particular items they "choose" to fact check. I already posted in another thread the study that shows their bias and how the "Fact checkers" should be fact checked,. But politifact fits a left leaning agenda so they are always cited by the left.

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Originally Posted by Tiny

SpeedRacer, The Brookings Institute is to the left what the Heritage Foundation or the American Enterprise Institute is to the right. It's biased.

In what you pointed me toward, they're cherry picking by looking at the bottom quintile (bottom 20%) of taxpayers. This is going to include a lot of students, housewives with part time jobs, as well as people who just get paid a lot less than they probably should. They pay very little tax. And as such they didn't get much of a tax cut.

That said, what I wrote is not inconsistent with the paragraphs you pointed me towards.

My first link, shows federal taxes decrease from an average of a 13.5% cut for people making $20,000 to $30,000 per year, down to a 5.9% cut for people making over $1,000,000 per year. Yes, they do show people making less than $10,000 as only receiving a 5.6% cut. And they also don't show any cut for people making between $10,000 and $20,000 per year, because that group was receiving money back from the federal government before the tax cut, and a little more money back after the tax cut.

My second link shows the single filers got no cut on their first $9525 in income and married filers got no cut on the first $19,050.

In other words, what your source is saying is that people who essentially paid no tax didn't get a tax cut. If you look at the middle class and upper income earners, the argument that this was a regressive tax cut doesn't wash, at all. Yes, if you're talking in dollar terms, the rich saved more. What do you expect in a country with the most progressive tax system in the developed world, where the top 1% pay 40% of the income tax and the top 10% pay 70%?

The other point in the 3rd or 4th paragraph was that people making over $1 million per year benefited most from the tax cuts for pass through entities. Absolutely true. But how many of them actually got significant benefit from that? The only people who benefited own companies with either huge depreciation compared to income (like Donald Trump) or very large labor expenses as a % of income. That's the way the the law was written. That's again why I say this was a sop to certain special interests, not "the rich."

Please note that my first source, the Joint Committee on Taxation, presumably is not biased and was quoted in the CNN article. The second source, I have no idea, but you could get the same information from IRS tax tables.

Tiny, I wish I could find the article I cited in a thread quite a while a ago. The average family in this country has a net income of around $62,000. They saw an average increase of 1.6% in their net income due to the tax reform. Those families with an income in the $200,000 range saw an average increase of 4.2%
in their net income due to the tax reform. These statistics are from memory so may be somewhat off.

Here is another source which illustrates what I am saying (Table 5).

The lower the income group, the lower the percentage benefit from the tax reform. This is true until you get to the top 10% of income groups.

https://taxfoundation.org/benefits-t...-middle-class/

[LexusLover]

What folks don't get when doing the comparative % of income is the reality of discretionary spending as it relates to the economy generally. Simply put: The more money people have in their pockets the more money they SPEND! (Not to mention the direct jobs the "rich folks" provide by expanding their businesses.)

Some folks actually believe that all "those rich people" stash their money in a coffee can (figuratively speaking) and bury it in the backyard (figuratively speaking). They don't. They buy shit. That means someone has to make the shit, transport it to the POS, and someone has to unload it, stock, and sell it .... creating jobs.

Here's an actual example .. in reverse. In the 70's the tax code allowed for limited partners to invest in multifamily, lower income residential units (the ones built were around 200 apts ... no frills like swimming pools) that had to be held for somewhere around 15 years and when sold there was no "capital gains" tax on the increased value of the complexes from the original cost and subsequent maintenance and upkeep value.

As a consequence the "profit" was poured back into the units by regular replacement of appliances, roofing, siding, AC units, paving, etc. ... all those "things" had to be manufactured and/or installed .... creating jobs. The Reagan tax reform killed them ... and there was a window of about 90 days when the LP could dump them and still benefit from the no tax law that created them. All those jobs were reduced and the value of the units as well in the "fire sales."

The real harm came when the full price owners raised the rents and shit-canned the sliding scale rent structure that provided housing for a lot of single-mothers with children who couldn't afford the "new" prices.

One doesn't simply look at stats of %'s to the specific taxpayer ... when evaluating the effects of tax adjustments by amendment of the Code. Trump's efforts have created jobs. The more people working the more taxes get paid and a lower burden on the Government by getting people off the Government tit.

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Originally Posted by LexusLover

What folks don't get when doing the comparative % of income is the reality of discretionary spending as it relates to the economy generally. Simply put: The more money people have in their pockets the more money they SPEND! (Not to mention the direct jobs the "rich folks" provide by expanding their businesses.)

Some folks actually believe that all "those rich people" stash their money in a coffee can (figuratively speaking) and bury it in the backyard (figuratively speaking). They don't. They buy shit. That means someone has to make the shit, transport it to the POS, and someone has to unload it, stock, and sell it .... creating jobs.

Here's an actual example .. in reverse. In the 70's the tax code allowed for limited partners to invest in multifamily, lower income residential units (the ones built were around 200 apts ... no frills like swimming pools) that had to be held for somewhere around 15 years and when sold there was no "capital gains" tax on the increased value of the complexes from the original cost and subsequent maintenance and upkeep value.

As a consequence the "profit" was poured back into the units by regular replacement of appliances, roofing, siding, AC units, paving, etc. ... all those "things" had to be manufactured and/or installed .... creating jobs. The Reagan tax reform killed them ... and there was a window of about 90 days when the LP could dump them and still benefit from the no tax law that created them. All those jobs were reduced and the value of the units as well in the "fire sales."

The real harm came when the full price owners raised the rents and shit-canned the sliding scale rent structure that provided housing for a lot of single-mothers with children who couldn't afford the "new" prices.

One doesn't simply look at stats of %'s to the specific taxpayer ... when evaluating the effects of tax adjustments by amendment of the Code. Trump's efforts have created jobs. The more people working the more taxes get paid and a lower burden on the Government by getting people off the Government tit.

You are certainly correct in looking at % increase of net income to families is just one way to look at the impact of the tax reform package on this country.

Most sources of information conclude that corporations, despite their windfall profits from the tax reform, did little other than buy back stock. They did not invest in new production facilities. They, for the most part, did not create new jobs. They, for the most part, did not give back to the workers.

"The Republican tax reform package that was supposed to raise wages and spur hiring has instead funded a record stock buyback and dividend spree, benefiting investors and company executives over workers.

"More than 70 percent of this [tax cut] will be returned to workers," said White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders at a January press conference after the bill came into effect.

However, companies have instead used the extra cash to spend billions of dollars buying back their own stock, boosting the value of shares held by investors. Buybacks reduce the number of shares on the market, immediately increasing the value of the shares that investors already hold.

Over the past year, S&P 500 companies have given their shareholders a record $1 trillion in the form of buybacks and dividends, led by Apple, Cisco Systems, and other technology giants."


And this at a cost of $1.5 trillion to the deficit.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/eco...mounts-n886621

[Hotrod511]

Originally Posted by Munchmasterman

You didn't argue my point either.

But of course you had to say something.
Just a "blistering" reply that concedes the post.
Thanks for your insight.

Hey Munchy did you read the OP? Didn't think so

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by eccielover

Most would not contest that all politicians lie(or if we are being politically correct in our statements like arguing over Spying compared to Surveillance) or more appropriately mislead to get the their message or point across. In that vein Trump is right up there with any other politician.

Citing politifact is nearly laughable, especially the particular items they "choose" to fact check. I already posted in another thread the study that shows their bias and how the "Fact checkers" should be fact checked,. But politifact fits a left leaning agenda so they are always cited by the left.

+1

Politifact is the toilet water Kool Aid of the left.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

Tiny, I wish I could find the article I cited in a thread quite a while a ago. The average family in this country has a net income of around $62,000. They saw an average increase of 1.6% in their net income due to the tax reform. Those families with an income in the $200,000 range saw an average increase of 4.2%
in their net income due to the tax reform. These statistics are from memory so may be somewhat off.

Here is another source which illustrates what I am saying (Table 5).

The lower the income group, the lower the percentage benefit from the tax reform. This is true until you get to the top 10% of income groups.

https://taxfoundation.org/benefits-t...-middle-class/

SpeedRacer, please be open minded. If I can get you to see the light on this I will achieve nirvana and my life will be complete.

The Tax Foundation estimates are consistent with the table in the Joint Tax Committee report, which was my first link and what CNN was trying to use to criticize the tax cuts in your link.

The Tax Foundation is looking at increases in after tax income. It's not looking at the % cut in income taxes paid. From what I google on the web, around 45% of people don't pay income tax. According to your second source, the Brookings Institute, this is misleading. They note that actually 28% of households pay no federal taxes at all, as there are those who make Social Security and Medicare contributions but don't pay income tax.

Social Security and Medicare for lower wage earners are a great deal. Unlike upper income earners, on average they get multiples of their contributions back, or at least that's what I read years ago.

The Tax Foundation article indicates the after tax INCOME INCREASE for the bottom 40% of Americans is small. Of course it is. If someone's not paying any income tax, presumably he gets no tax cut. If he's paying at an effective 5% tax rate and he gets a 10% cut, then his income increases by 0.5%. If an upper income earner is paying at 30% effective rate and he gets a 10% cut, then his after tax income increases 3%, or 6X the other guy.

The item of significance I'd take away from your tax foundation article, if their analysis is reasonable, is that the top 1% end up with a 7.5% increase in static after tax income in 2018 and 3.3% in 2017. This is actually what pissed me off about the tax cut*. It's caused by Congress and Trump playing favorites and awarding businessmen with pass through entities that have lots of depreciation expenses (like Donald Trump) and labor expenses to get significant tax cuts while others didn't.

However, your link is causing me to rethink this. What really matters is the "dynamic" analysis. When you factor in jobs growth and economic growth and look at the effects in the longer term, what's the effect on Americans? It shows all of us making around 4.5% more income in 2027. And the top 10% actually benefit less than the bottom 90%.

They say, "According to the Taxes and Growth model, long-run GDP growth will increase by 3.9 percent above what it would have done otherwise, wages will rise by 3.1 percent higher wages, and we’ll create 975,000 more full-time equivalent jobs. Those dynamic effects should increase after-tax income by 4.5 percent for those in the second-lowest quintile, and by 4.6 percent for those in the middle quintile."

I fell into the same trap as Barrack Obama, when he spoke with the reporter Charlie Gibson back around 2008. Gibson asked Obama why he'd want to increase the capital gains tax rate if it caused the actual amount of capital gains taxes collected to decrease. (If government taxes you too much on asset sales, you won't sell assets.) Obama replied something like it makes for a fairer, more equal society. Or translation, fuck the rich even if it makes everyone worse off. I imagine a good part of the 975,000 increase in the number of jobs may be a result of the tax cuts for the pass through entities that have large labor costs, something I didn’t like because it’s playing favorites.

The Achilles heal of course is the increase in the deficit. Hopefully Congress and the President will plug this by spending more efficiently. Anyway, the results of the Tax Foundation analysis, if you believe it, should be clear. If you leave more money in the hands of Americans and the government takes less, we're more prosperous. Again, that's why countries like the USA, Switzerland, and Singapore are better off than other countries, excluding tiny places and the petrostates.



Footnotes

*This isn't entirely true. What really pissed me off about the "tax cut" was that it increased my taxes, a lot.

[dilbert firestorm]

politicfacts on the illegal alien numbers are subjective. how can it be false when no one knows 4 sure how many are in country.


figures given out were based on 2 different counting methodologies.

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Originally Posted by Tiny

SpeedRacer, please be open minded. If I can get you to see the light on this I will achieve nirvana and my life will be complete.

The Tax Foundation estimates are consistent with the table in the Joint Tax Committee report, which was my first link and what CNN was trying to use to criticize the tax cuts in your link.

The Tax Foundation is looking at increases in after tax income. It's not looking at the % cut in income taxes paid. From what I google on the web, around 45% of people don't pay income tax. According to your second source, the Brookings Institute, this is misleading. They note that actually 28% of households pay no federal taxes at all, as there are those who make Social Security and Medicare contributions but don't pay income tax.

Social Security and Medicare for lower wage earners are a great deal. Unlike upper income earners, on average they get multiples of their contributions back, or at least that's what I read years ago.

The Tax Foundation article indicates the after tax INCOME INCREASE for the bottom 40% of Americans is small. Of course it is. If someone's not paying any income tax, presumably he gets no tax cut. If he's paying at an effective 5% tax rate and he gets a 10% cut, then his income increases by 0.5%. If an upper income earner is paying at 30% effective rate and he gets a 10% cut, then his after tax income increases 3%, or 6X the other guy.

The item of significance I'd take away from your tax foundation article, if their analysis is reasonable, is that the top 1% end up with a 7.5% increase in static after tax income in 2018 and 3.3% in 2017. This is actually what pissed me off about the tax cut*. It's caused by Congress and Trump playing favorites and awarding businessmen with pass through entities that have lots of depreciation expenses (like Donald Trump) and labor expenses to get significant tax cuts while others didn't.

However, your link is causing me to rethink this. What really matters is the "dynamic" analysis. When you factor in jobs growth and economic growth and look at the effects in the longer term, what's the effect on Americans? It shows all of us making around 4.5% more income in 2027. And the top 10% actually benefit less than the bottom 90%.

They say, "According to the Taxes and Growth model, long-run GDP growth will increase by 3.9 percent above what it would have done otherwise, wages will rise by 3.1 percent higher wages, and we’ll create 975,000 more full-time equivalent jobs. Those dynamic effects should increase after-tax income by 4.5 percent for those in the second-lowest quintile, and by 4.6 percent for those in the middle quintile."

I fell into the same trap as Barrack Obama, when he spoke with the reporter Charlie Gibson back around 2008. Gibson asked Obama why he'd want to increase the capital gains tax rate if it caused the actual amount of capital gains taxes collected to decrease. (If government taxes you too much on asset sales, you won't sell assets.) Obama replied something like it makes for a fairer, more equal society. Or translation, fuck the rich even if it makes everyone worse off. I imagine a good part of the 975,000 increase in the number of jobs may be a result of the tax cuts for the pass through entities that have large labor costs, something I didn’t like because it’s playing favorites.

The Achilles heal of course is the increase in the deficit. Hopefully Congress and the President will plug this by spending more efficiently. Anyway, the results of the Tax Foundation analysis, if you believe it, should be clear. If you leave more money in the hands of Americans and the government takes less, we're more prosperous. Again, that's why countries like the USA, Switzerland, and Singapore are better off than other countries, excluding tiny places and the petrostates.



Footnotes

*This isn't entirely true. What really pissed me off about the "tax cut" was that it increased my taxes, a lot.

Tiny, I'm not going to continue to argue with you. You are one of the most sensible people on this forum. Every point you make is on-point and you respect the viewpoints of others, whether you agree or disagree with them.