Quote:
Originally Posted by JRLawrence
May we have calmness for our discussion?
Your facts are simply incorrect about both Washington and Jefferson.
Reading history tells us a much different story than the hysterics and propaganda we hear today.
TJ worked to remove slavery from America.
Forget that you are talking about slavery for a moment. All areas of society change slowly. Slavery existed for over 450 years in America. It ended about 150 years ago. We are still making changes.
A lot of people want immediate changes in society, and then look back 250 years ago and ask: why didn't those people do things differently, or why didn't they do things as we would do those things today?
Lets look at things in the right perspective for the time.
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TR, while discussing Thomas Jefferson's legacy on race and racism, is actually very interesting to me, neither of us are revolutionary scholars so continuing on this thread will exhaust me to no end finding expert sources etc. I'll leave it hanging out for now. As you say, regarding TJ, there is so much propaganda out there with him being the founder of the Democratic Party and all. If you find some good reading on the founding fathers and race I'm up to it so pass along the link. I find TJ a fascinating figure who's contradictions and words inspired many of the Northern States of the Union to completely abolish slavery while others used his words to perpetuate slavery through State's rights.
Although I think Agreen7's arguments are still better regarding Ali's legacy, I'm calling truce with dirty dog bc although he got in some pretty nasty blows, I feel I ganged up on him. If he says he isn't racist or acts racist, let's give him the full benefit of the doubt with this being a hooker/John board and all.
To me it's been an interesting thread because I didn't appreciate how deep patriotism runs through some people and the ways it expresses itself. I won't disrespect anyone's strong patriotism, especially from those that serve and have made a sacrifice for me and my community. I have met countless man and woman at our VA facilities across the US who sacrificed a lot for us. They deserve so much more but that's another thread. Yes they salute the flag but mostly they served because they believe in freedoms such as freedom of religion, rights to vote, freedom of press and speech so we can argue about Ali, race, and the John/hooker life. I didn't serve but my grandfather and grandmother were immigrants just prior to WWII. Both served. My grandmother became one of the top officers in the nursing Corp in the Pacific and my grandfather was in the army and saw a lot of action on the African and European front including being an early wave D-Day victor. He received a bunch of awards that he didn't care about such as 4 bronze stars (a star and 3 oak leaves) and a silver star. Similar to what JR said, my grandfather told me when you were in a fox hole you didn't give a shit about your men's personal life or history. Race, bi, straight,or gay, what language they spoke or whatever. You needed them to hand you the ammo, period.... On a similar point, I am going to ask questions in the coed discussion about service men and "service." Doesn't mean the fight is over(my lord it isn't over at all) but right is right.
