The glory days of the HDH are over.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by woodyboyd

However, the numbers are what they are. There are six million fewer men in their 40s. And there are three million more women in their 20s than a decade ago, and these women IMO are less likely to have the moral objection to taking money for pleasure that older women had. Furthermore, this nation has seen $10 trillion of wealth go poof in the last three years. So the trends (more women, less demand, and less wealth) are all squarely against the old HDH model.

Almost every wealthy man I know has had to be a good judge of value. IMO when a man says, it does not matter to him how much something or someone costs, he is being polite.

As I said, I have the opportunity to dine with smart and beautiful women and get paid for doing so, and I suspect that I am far from the only man able to do so.

One time I was dining with a woman and the waiter for some reason took 30 minutes to get the bill. That the woman expected to be paid for this time was pretty annoying. In fact, I think it was the last dinner date that I had.

I know some men like having the most exclusive women by their side at public events and are willing to pay for it. I am not one of them.

The rationale for paying a woman a few hundred dollars an hour to attend an event was based on the fact that the woman could make the same money BCD, and she opted for the event instead. One flaw is that many men like myself could make that money working too.


I was glad to see that some women here have accepted that reality and embraced the concept of the clock free night. There should be different rates for time spent BCD and time spent enjoying fine food and drink.

Using the SB model, men now are able to get clock free nights already. I am glad to see some HDHs acknowledge this and offer up a rational alternative.

1) "less demand" -- I'm not so sure...I think is it "more supply" -- as you've acknowledged yourself in earlier posts as a result of the internet/message boards/review sites etc. what used to be a rare find at $2k is now widely available for $500....

2) not seeing the value in paying for a woman to join you for dinner or an event -- the good news about this biz -- you can pick and choose what what want. For some, that time is a of value; others not so much...you make the call...

3) as for different rates, BCD/nonBCD, although we all know the score here, that kind of flys in the face of disclaimer paragraph they all have about "all monies paid are for time and companionship....."

[guest060911]

Originally Posted by woodyboyd

…The irony is that I dumped my Halle Berry SB lookalike over character issues. She had personality, beauty, and BCD skills. If she were only a provider and not a SB, I would probably still be seeing her…As I said, I have the opportunity to dine with smart and beautiful women and get paid for doing so, and I suspect that I am far from the only man able to do so…I know some men like having the most exclusive women by their side at public events and are willing to pay for it. I am not one of them…The rationale for paying a woman a few hundred dollars an hour to attend an event was based on the fact that the woman could make the same money BCD, and she opted for the event instead. One flaw is that many men like myself could make that money working too…The other in my case was knowing that the same women would attend an event with a friend or family member and not get paid for her time. I don't know how to pay for such an event and not feel pathetic about doing so…I was glad to see that some women here have accepted that reality and embraced the concept of the clock free night. There should be different rates for time spent BCD and time spent enjoying fine food and drink...

First, let me say that if you like women with facial features highly comparable to Halle Berry’s than you have good taste, which is always nice to hear, as I've been compared to her in the face my entire life...

Second, I respect your wish and any other gentleman’s desire to not compensate a lady for time spent at dinner, but I don’t think this is a reality that must be embraced. A clock-free night isn’t a necessity, as there are still men willing to compensate for dinner. And it’s good that you are honest with your expectations, given there are plenty of companions willing to accommodate them. It’s a win-win situation for both parties.

Lastly, I wouldn’t go as far as comparing time at dinner or an event with family and friends to time with a client at dinner or an event. For the vast majority of providers, I am confident in saying that with family/friends they get to completely enjoy the dinner or event without having to be a perfect companion for the entire time. They are not “working” when with family and friends, and as a result they can present all of their flaws and just be their 100% true self. They don’t have to smile or be flirty for the dinner, etc. However, when they go to dinner with a client, even if they have had a completely shitty day, they will be in the best of moods and all of their focus will be on YOU (and they will process their shitty day later…with family and friends), as the client/companion relationship is inherently skewed to satisfy the client’s needs. So in essence they are at “work” as the dinner is not to meet their needs (again, this is a generalization, as some escorts will insist otherwise perhaps for marketing or not...who really knows).

So in general dinner or an event with a client is not the same as dinner or an event with family/friends with the exception of those clients with whom a provider has built a strong and lasting (real) friendship void of expectations and pretenses. She can be her 100000% complete self whether she is in the best of moods or not. She can talk politics or about real life matters and that client will still be her client despite her not being the perfect “always on” companion that is typically expected. She can spill salad, have something in her teeth or whatever, and it’s irrelevant to this client. Their relationship is strong and they are true friends, thus dinner with a client like this is like dinner with their family and friends.

With that said, I am certain I haven’t changed your mind or any other gentleman’s who isn’t interested in compensating a lady for her time at dinner, which is completely ok, because that wasn’t my intention. However, hopefully you can see the rational for some ladies requiring a fee for their time at dinner. For some of these ladies, they could be enjoying that same fabulous dinner and elegant restaurant with family and friends while being their 1000% flawed RL self, because there is a large number of escorts who can afford dinner out.

Regards.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

But there are still folks buying big cars...and big houses...and spending extravagantly. And there are still guys who see gals at the high end of the "pay for play" structure. There just are not as many guys who have the cash to blow as there was a few years ago. They have traded in their big car for a chevrolet...and they have traded in the higher end P4P cash for lower end P4P. But that does not mean those folks who have had a change of fortunes do not yearn for the days when they can move up to the higher end again.

You mean those Master Card millionaires?

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by GiamarieLynn

Lastly, I wouldn’t go as far as comparing time at dinner or an event with family and friends to time with a client at dinner or an event. For the vast majority of providers, I am confident in saying that with family/friends they get to completely enjoy the dinner or event without having to be a perfect companion for the entire time. They are not “working” when with family and friends, and as a result they can present all of their flaws and just be their 100% true self. They don’t have to smile or be flirty for the dinner, etc. However, when they go to dinner with a client, even if they have had a completely shitty day, they will be in the best of moods and all of their focus will be on YOU (and they will process their shitty day later…with family and friends), as the client/companion relationship is inherently skewed to satisfy the client’s needs. So in essence they are at “work” as the dinner is not to meet their needs (again, this is a generalization, as some escorts will insist otherwise perhaps for marketing or not...who really knows).

So in general dinner or an event with a client is not the same as dinner or an event with family/friends with the exception of those clients with whom a provider has built a strong and lasting (real) friendship void of expectations and pretenses. She can be her 100000% complete self whether she is in the best of moods or not. She can talk politics or about real life matters and that client will still be her client despite her not being the perfect “always on” companion that is typically expected. She can spill salad, have something in her teeth or whatever, and it’s irrelevant to this client. Their relationship is strong and they are true friends, thus dinner with a client like this is like dinner with their family and friends.

With that said, I am certain I haven’t changed your mind or any other gentleman’s who isn’t interested in compensating a lady for her time at dinner, which is completely ok, because that wasn’t my intention. However, hopefully you can see the rational for some ladies requiring a fee for their time at dinner. For some of these ladies, they could be enjoying that same fabulous dinner and elegant restaurant with family and friends while being their 1000% flawed RL self, because there is a large number of escorts who can afford dinner out.

Regards.

Ironically I had a conversation with someone in the biz just this week on this topic. Being the perfect companion is tough work. Yes I said work. Probably twice as tough is pulling off the act of a companion in a group setting where the rest of the table thinks you are a legit couple.

There has been discussion about the rise of the "quickie" or short sessions less than even 30 minutes. I'll suggest/hypothesize the reason is clearly in part because there is a demand for it, but as well because for some ladies it is easier to lay on their backs and spread their legs than actually expend the emotional effort needed to pull off an extended date & the intimacy involved in sharing a meal and a good conversation.

& Boyd, make no mistake the hot women that share dinner with you (probably even picking up the the tab) would much rather be at home with their husband/boyfriend and kids. Dinner with you is work for them, just they get a w-2 from their employer instead of a white envelope on the nightstand.

[guest060911]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

Ironically I had a conversation with someone in the biz just this week on this topic. Being the perfect companion is tough work. Yes I said work. Probably twice as tough is pulling off the act of a companion in a group setting where the rest of the table thinks you are a legit couple....There has been discussion about the rise of the "quickie" or short sessions less than even 30 minutes. I'll suggest/hypothesize the reason is clearly in part because there is a demand for it, but as well because for some ladies it is easier to lay on their backs and spread their legs than actually expend the emotional effort needed to pull off an extended date & the intimacy involved in sharing a meal and a good conversation...

Gosh, you are so right. I spoke with a couple of ladies who offer half hour sessions and they said it's a lot easier to just give the physical than emotional, because you have to give more of yourself when it is emotional. It's easy to lie on your back and have sex while thinking about tomorrow's to-do list, while it's quite another thing to offer an intelligent conversation and a complete emotional experience. Also, I've heard a couple of ladies say they offer half hours because they can potentially make more money this way. If they offer two half hour sessions in one day, they will make $400 compared to the $250 they would make on 1-one hour engagement.

But you are spot on about the emotional effort one puts into an extended engagement. Even though it can be a lot of "work", it is well worth the effort, as you get to know your gentlemen friends on a different level. I really appreciate this part of companionship, even if I can't be my flawed self. Of course, I prefer to be compensated for my time at dinner as well. And if there is genuine undeniable chemistry, it can make the dinner feel like a real date, which is always good fun. And even if you're being the perfect companion, you actually enjoy it, because you love the chemistry flowing between you and the client. That's my favorite part.

Xoxo.

[woodyboyd]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

& Boyd, make no mistake the hot women that share dinner with you (probably even picking up the the tab) would much rather be at home with their husband/boyfriend and kids. Dinner with you is work for them, just they get a w-2 from their employer instead of a white envelope on the nightstand.

I used the word "I" far too often in my last post. What I like is not relevant. What men such as myself like is extremely relevant.

And men such as myself see a trifle of hypocrisy in the statements that were just listed. One HDH says that it is often a pleasure to dine with gentlemen but often it is work. Another describes it always as unbridled joy. If I personally were such the pain to dine with you suggest ATL, then shouldn't a HDH offer men like yourself, who are supposedly infinitely more charming than me, a lower rate?

Part of the SB experience and also I assume the unclocked night is that the woman has the right to leave for any reason including the man being an ass. The Angie Everhart SB I have been seeing has taken half as much from me as her previous SD. The reason she quit seeing her previous SD was that he wanted to walk her in the park with a dog collar around her neck, and apparently that was only one such humiliating request.

For men like myself, we are truly trying to show the women in question a good time even as we are footing the bill. If I later learned that a woman considered dining with me work, then I would wish she had told me so. Men like myself have other options.

Part of the benefit of the SB experience is that you meet for a quick drink to make sure that the two of you are compatible without the stress of the man having to pay a $1000 tab for dinner, and the woman stressed that she may get stiffed. Why can't a HDH do likewise? If it is such work for a HDH to dine with a client, then IMO she should be honest with the client and leave.

And while dinner may be one thing and the HDH is an active participant, there are other passive activities. Someone will have to explain to men like myself how it is work worthy of a $1000 tab or so to watch cirque du soleil.

With the SB and unclocked date, there is incentive for the man to be charming and find out what the woman in question enjoys and makes her happy. If it is work for her to go to Cirque du soleil, then what activity does she enjoy?

Unlike a lot of other men, I am not belittling the women who are HDHs or the men who see them. I was in fact one of those men. However, there are financial and demographic realities, and the alternative SB model has exploded with regards to popularity.

It is pretty obvious that a lot of men have adjusted their spending habits in this area downward, and some HDHs have wisely adjusted to this new reality whereas others are waiting for a return to the glory days. Those days IMO are long gone.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by woodyboyd

However, there are financial and demographic realities, and the alternative SB model has exploded with regards to popularity.

It is pretty obvious that a lot of men have adjusted their spending habits in this area downward, and some HDHs have wisely adjusted to this new reality whereas others are waiting for a return to the glory days. Those days IMO are long gone.

That was your main premise and I agree. That is why you see this clock free option. Businesses responding to the changing market. You sure the fuc don't want to be selling Pay phones now a days, no matter how much $$$ you made in the past doing so!

[atlcomedy]

@woodyboyd:

Apologies if I offended you by suggesting dining with you is "work." I could have inserted any other name including my own. I was just trying to make a point. One which I stand by.

From time to time I am asked to dinner or offer to entertain business colleagues. Sometimes I legitimately have a great time but many time it isn't a can of peaches. Not that these are bad people or not charming in their own way & I'm sure they have some great people in their life but that evening we are together only thru professional circumstance.

If I could blow off a random dinner & there were no financial consequences I would much rather have fish & chips at the pub with a couple of pals or lay on the couch and order a pizza to share with my girl. I don't have kids but if I did I think I would cherish my private time away from work even more.

[guest060911]

Originally Posted by woodyboyd

I used the word "I" far too often in my last post. What I like is not relevant. What men such as myself like is extremely relevant...If I personally were such the pain to dine with you suggest ATL, then shouldn't a HDH offer men like yourself, who are supposedly infinitely more charming than me, a lower rate?...For men like myself, we are truly trying to show the women in question a good time even as we are footing the bill. If I later learned that a woman considered dining with me work, then I would wish she had told me so. Men like myself have other options...Part of the benefit of the SB experience is that you meet for a quick drink to make sure that the two of you are compatible without the stress of the man having to pay a $1000 tab for dinner, and the woman stressed that she may get stiffed. Why can't a HDH do likewise? If it is such work for a HDH to dine with a client, then IMO she should be honest with the client and leave...And while dinner may be one thing and the HDH is an active participant, there are other passive activities. Someone will have to explain to men like myself how it is work worthy of a $1000 tab or so to watch cirque du soleil...It is pretty obvious that a lot of men have adjusted their spending habits in this area downward, and some HDHs have wisely adjusted to this new reality whereas others are waiting for a return to the glory days. Those days IMO are long gone.

Just to clarify my use of the term "work": Work is “the labor, task, or duty that is one's accustomed means of livelihood”. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/work Thus, “work” in the context of this discussion is anytime a provider takes on the role of “[insert her stage name]” for the benefit of her client in order to receive compensation as this is her “means of livelihood”. However, feel free to use any softer or more elegant term to describe “work” or “profession” if the aforementioned doesn’t resonant well with you.

And work does not equate to "pain".

So, when I interact with a client as "Giamarie" instead of "[insert real legal name]", I am “working” whether I enjoy myself (like an artist enjoys his work as a painter) or not. And just like anyone else who goes to work, a companion consciously puts forth effort into doing an excellent job, if she wants to be the best at what she does to ensure the client returns for a future encounter. Most of the businessmen I know put for effort into being exceptional at their jobs (form of income), and as a result their work can be mentally draining, so they do not do it for free. This is one reason a lady might choose to be “low volume”, as she prefers to mentally stay fresh for each gentleman friend.

And escorts/companions/courtesans/etc. are not just going on dates with you. There is an exchange of an envelope as it is their form of income. Further, on a real life date, they don’t have to put up any façade of perfection, because if the gentleman doesn’t like them, it is irrelevant as they do not have to worry about losing income to pay for their mortgage, etc. They can walk away without a care in the world. However, on a “date” with a client, they have to put forth additional effort (like anyone who interacts with their boss or business client) to ensure the client has an amazing time so that he will return as a regular patron, because this is their form of income (i.e. “work”). There is a big difference between a date with a civie and a date with a client; therefore, many providers choose to be compensated for the entire time they are “[insert stage name]” instead of “[insert real name]”.

And there are a lot of companions who can afford to go to cirque du soleil with family and friends while completely being “[insert real name]” instead of “[insert stage name]” for the entire time they are at the event with a client.

With that said, this is not to say dining with a client is a pain; however, it is not the same as dining alone or with family and friends. It is far from comparable unless you are a regular with a solid friendship. Likewise, it’s not a pain for an artist to paint a beautiful picture on a canvas, but they are still “working” as this is their livelihood. Also, it may not be a pain for a businessman to go to lunch with a client, but they are still working, thus their company typically compensates them for their time spent dining.

Clearly, I got off track, as I like to go with the flow of discussion. And I completely "get" your point that some men spend their money differently now than they did ten years ago, so it is great several companions (including myself) are willing to offer “clock free” options, additional time to regulars, etc. There are several ways to show client appreciation especially in a downed economy, and many of us do so. I concur with your observation. However, I feel it is never appropriate to have an expectation of uncompensated time at dinner because a gentleman feels it is comparable to time at dinner with family and friends or in the comfort of one’s home with their cat. So I guess that was my point. Expectations are one thing, offering uncompensated time to a regular as a lovely gesture is quite another thing.

Anyway, I truly hope the use of the word “work” has not offended anyone else, and that they can see the difference between being at home or at the circus with your children or on an engagement with a client no matter how much a lady enjoys it. And if you are offended by the word "work", I apologize, but I hope this isn't the case.

Good discussion.

Warm regards.

[charlestudor2005]

Nice, clear explanation.

One of my basic fears in this dynamic is the escort (courtesan or whatever) is merely putting on a front to me and is not enjoying her time with me at all. You just confirmed that as a fact.

I would much prefer a lady to tell me that she has not enjoyed her time with me than pretend she has, and we both suffer through another session.

As I rarely see the same lady twice, it isn't much of a problem. But it does heighten the chance that I'll ring up a BP girl than an ECCIE girl...the reason being, that if the enjoyment is going to be faked, I might as well pay an BP rate than an ECCIE rate or a HDH rate.

[Sydneyb]

GinaMarie - I wouldn't waste another moment spending time trying to convince what I am fairly confident is a troll.

To the OP - if you're not a troll, why come to an escort board if you are so very successful in getting your needs met elsewhere?

Oh. And the HDH model isn't dead at all. Talking down to those that "get it" is sickening to me. You can try to intimidate by being a patronizing prick all you want, but the fact is that many women are doing so very well with or without "men like you".

[guest060911]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

Nice, clear explanation.

One of my basic fears in this dynamic is the escort (courtesan or whatever) is merely putting on a front to me and is not enjoying her time with me at all. You just confirmed that as a fact.

I would much prefer a lady to tell me that she has not enjoyed her time with me than pretend she has, and we both suffer through another session.

As I rarely see the same lady twice, it isn't much of a problem. But it does heighten the chance that I'll ring up a BP girl than an ECCIE girl...the reason being, that if the enjoyment is going to be faked, I might as well pay an BP rate than an ECCIE rate or a HDH rate.

lol.........

I think you are inferring something that is not there, as I did not confirm that ladies just put on a front and do not enjoy what they do at all. However, some ladies front, of course, and to assume otherwise would be silly. But there are other ladies who don’t pretend they are having a good time, but this doesn’t mean she wants to go to dinner without compensation.

Personally, I enjoy my time with clients. I have the luxury to see only a handful of regulars or select new friends a month and I enjoy it. I wouldn't do it if I didn't enjoy it, because I simply don't have to. I don’t need escorting.

I’ve also enjoyed my work in the non-profit and social service sectors (didn't care for corporate though), just like I enjoy being in school and actually studying, though it’s a lot of work. Always a smile on my face, I was respectful to my superiors, as that’s how you get far in life and keep a job. You put forth effort in everything that will yield favorable results. So you can do something for a living and still enjoy it, just like an exquisite companion will forth effort to ensure a stellar time on every single encounter and still love what she does, but not choose to do it without pay.

I love being a companion, but if there is a choice between going to dinner or cirque du solei with a client without compensation or with my cherished family and friends with whom are my world, I will pick family and friends, and I will front the bill. After all, we are on a P$P board. And if I do choose to go to dinner without compensation, it is because it is with a long standing regular with whom I have developed a strong friendship. We appreciate each other and treat each other well. And he never expects a dinner on me, yet it is because I want to do it for him...out of appreciation for his continued patronage.

So just to reiterate, I did not say companions put on fronts and do not enjoy what they do, but like any artist who knows they are going to get paid for the beautiful art on a canvas, they will put forth additional effort to ensure it is a masterpiece, because it is their job, whether they enjoy it or not.

Painting as a hobby is completely different than painting for pay.

Bye.

[Guest083011]

Originally Posted by GiamarieLynn

There is a big difference between a date with a civie and a date with a client; therefore, many providers choose to be compensated for the entire time they are “[insert stage name]” instead of “[insert real name]”.

And there are a lot of companions who can afford to go to cirque du soleil with family and friends while completely being “[insert real name]” instead of “[insert stage name]” for the entire time they are at the event with a client.
....

Also, it may not be a pain for a businessman to go to lunch with a client, but they are still working, thus their company typically compensates them for their time spent dining.

But those of us will extend free to a client in order to reap the benefits or rewards of making the sale. getting the order etc. I do it in my business. Yes, one will have dinner or lunch with a client for "free" in the hopes of future business.

I few times I have offered to have my companion join me for dinner. I specify, that I am indeed going to dinner. She may join me and I will buy her meal and that has been fine. We enjoy our time together. And go our separate ways. Or head for BCD depending if BCD was first. Should she say no, I fully understand. But in some cases I know we get along well so I consider it two people who participate in the demimonde world so we automatically have a few things in common. And before I'll ask I'll make sure that I would enjoy the time with her as I hope she would with me. If it is someone for who BCD is exciting for the time we are together but in a social environment it would not be fun, then I would not even make the offer.

[Doove]

Originally Posted by woodyboyd

If I personally were such the pain to dine with you suggest ATL, then shouldn't a HDH offer men like yourself, who are supposedly infinitely more charming than me, a lower rate?

My guess is that if ATL were more charming and enjoyable to be around than yourself, he would benefit from a lower rate. Though not in all cases, it would often come in the form of the extra time that he'd benefit from, which would be denied to you.

I think it's pretty obvious why girls would need to be firm in holding to what their rates actually are. First and foremost, while she may enjoy the company of Gentleman A over that of Gentleman B, she may still prefer to be out with Gentlemen B if he were paying her the higher rate than she would be charging Gentleman A. So it would follow that Gentleman A would still need to pay the rates that Gentleman B pays if he wants the benefit of her services on that particular evening.

The Angie Everhart SB I have been seeing has taken half as much from me as her previous SD.

But she's still taking from you. A point i'll re-address in a moment.

And while dinner may be one thing and the HDH is an active participant, there are other passive activities. Someone will have to explain to men like myself how it is work worthy of a $1000 tab or so to watch cirque du soleil.

If you pay a girl $1000 and then decide to take her to Cirque De Soleil, don't blame her. That's on you.

With the SB and unclocked date, there is incentive for the man to be charming and find out what the woman in question enjoys and makes her happy. If it is work for her to go to Cirque du soleil, then what activity does she enjoy?

Unless your Angie Everhart SB would be with you were you paying her $0, then the situation is really no different. What makes you so sure your SB enjoys your company any more than an HDH would? Because she only makes you pay her 1/2 of what her prior SD paid her? Because you let her have a say in what you do for the evening? If you say so. Just keep in mind, if she's there because you're paying her, then she's only there because you're paying her. The only real difference is that she frames it in such a way that she can deny what's truly going on. Which seems to fly in the face of your desire for transparency on the part of the girls you're with.

[Sydneyb]

Originally Posted by SR Only

I consider it two people who participate in the demimonde world so we automatically have a few things in common. .

What you describe is dinner with someone who is a prostitute and by not supporting her, you treat her as such by failing to support her in on a larger scale. This is not a bad thing - prostitution has served many of us well in our current or past lives. Someone who is in the Demimonde is, by definition, involved in a world in which women are supported by a wealthy lover or lovers and the term applies to that world. It does not describe the world of prostitution or interactions with individual clients. If you want to be part of the Demimonde there is an entry fee, even if you're not paying it at the time that you are breaking bread with the lady of choice.

Always, but particularly in light of these conversations I thank God for my friend, lover, patron. And yes, the black amex that comes with it. But also the mutual respect and kindness that is shared between us.

See below for the correct usage of the term Demimonde:
Demimondaine was a polite 19th century term that was often used the same way we use the term "mistress" today. Demimonde primarily referred to a class of women on the fringes of respectable society supported by wealthy lovers (usually each had several). The term is also used to refer to these women as a group, and the social circles they moved in. As a group, the demimonde did not form a 'society' any more than modern prostitutes form a society. But they did represent a social class of women in the latter half of the 19th century and into the early 20th century who were commonplace fixtures in the upper class of French, English and, to some extent, American society. In the United States and Britain, they were (and still are) also often referred to as courtesans, though that term in the 19th century applied to a profession (as the term "prostitute" describes a profession), whereas 'demimonde' was used to describe a broader social class, and 'demimondaine' a member of that class.