Who will propose a law - everyone carries a gun?

[Unique_Carpenter]

Seriously, shouldn't everyone carry?
Except those that have "lost" that right.

A recent news:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/armed-bys...-from-stabbing

I know that I don't need a military weapon.
I qualify any test with just one clip.

[LexusLover]

Here's a "clip" ....



On a serious note ...

http://mynorthwest.com/1188416/repub...nctuary-city/?

Washington police chief proposes ‘2nd Amendment Sanctuary City’ law

Given the parameters provided ... most states allow a person to carry a firearm. The majority of them manage and/or license handguns. Long guns, rifles and shotguns, are allowed in most western states without any permission and/or license, beyond those parameters of possession and/or ownership of "prohibited weapons" and in "prohibited places" as defined by Federal, State, and/or Local laws.

As Shakespeare so cleverly wrote: "Much Ado About Nothing"!

It's just another political football, like "immigration reform," based on misnomers and misinformation disseminated by a bunch of ignorant, scaredy-cat wimps who want to control people's lives and want to disarm them so they can't resist their efforts.

And that is the precise purpose for the 2nd amendment. One is free to say and worship what the fuck they want as per the 1st and protect that right from tyranny by the 2nd. And then move forward through the list of "thou shalt not" addressed to the Government.

The Obaminable Administration made a mockery of the first 5-6 of them and th bleed over is offensive.

[Unique_Carpenter]

OK LL,
I spilled a bit of coffee with a clip laugh.

But, seriously, again, most senior level law enforcement folks are well aware that registered citizens carrying can actually help, and they have zero concerns about that. Good for the Washington Chief for publicly stating that constitutional issues override any carp the politicians come up with. After all, the founders put stuff into the amendments realizing that future politicians would try take basic citizen rights away.

Btw, I used to be able to throw sharps, so the clip pic was actually humorous to me.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by Unique_Carpenter

OK LL,
I spilled a bit of coffee with a clip laugh.

But, seriously, again, most senior level law enforcement folks are well aware that registered citizens carrying can actually help, .....

... that stat I challenge.

I'm more familiar with Texas, which pretty much is consistent with the Western States until one hits the West coast, which has morphed into a gang of hypocritical, de-arming, and anti-Constitutional wimps, but the first response locally was the Sheriff's association pushback on "background" checks and they the legislative debates over the initial carry laws, which could only get through with the Texas Department of Public Safety being the "oversight" agency for licensing and training standard ... which are and will ever be inferior to basic LE firearm training for beginning peace officers with training academies offering training for new hires above the basic required minimum.

The lack of adequate carry standards of training and re-qual has always been an objection of mine and always will be, because training people at a level appropriate for "street shooting" will cull a lot of folks .. most! And will equalize them with LE.

The fundamental objection now for street officers (and their bosses) is sorting out who can carry and who can't, with a basic ASSUMPTION that the person they stop is carrying. And 2nd (although equally important) having to worry about a bunch of amateur, gunslingers swaggering into a gunfight. TV and video games don't shoot back with live rounds.

BTW ... the inexpensive style I hope, and not the high-end quality ...

[Unique_Carpenter]

Actually LL,
I agree with your training comments. I overlook that aspect simply cause I'm qualified with multiple tools.

Leo pushback for doing the background checks was primarily due to assignment of workload without providing funding. This is from leo budgets I've seen in three states.

I disagree with combining carry standards with training though, as IMO this is precluded by 2nd amendment. That said, anyone that does not have decent training shouldn't carry, open or concealed. And IMO what is taught for cc permits is a joke.

As for street officers vs joe citizen that carries:
Well, joe citizen should have the training and related knowledge to not be displaying a weapon to leo, should place it on the ground, etc. And, once leo is on the scene, LEO has situation command. One must realize and acknowledge that leo is authorized to terminate anyone that is perceived to be a threat.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by Unique_Carpenter

Leo pushback for doing the background checks was primarily due to assignment of workload without providing funding.

The "official" justification vs. the unofficial reason. Generally speaking local LE has a disdain for the Feds coming in and telling them what to do ... whether it be running investigations or doing their grunt work. Being mandated by Federal law is offensive to them. It was clearly emphasized in the final debates of the concealed carry before the Texas Senate.

With respect to the 2nd amendment. Please find me a SCOTUS opinion that says that a person can CARRY a firearm (handgun) without restrictions of any kind, including minimal training requirements.

On the one side of the discussion are a bunch of clowns who want to restrict ownership/possession on the basis of PERCEIVED mental instability based on the "red flag" report of jealous, rejected lovers and/or spouses or offended neighbors who want to fuck with people because their grass is too high~! On the other end are nut-cases who believe anyone and everyone should be able to strap on a bazooka to go to the mall on Sunday afternoon.

Some where in the middle are those who believe that law-abiding citizens with feel comfortable wearing a handgun should be able to do so in MOST PLACES with sufficient training and education in "the law" to make appropriate decisions regarding "shoot-don't shoot" situations and who are capable of exercising good judgment when the a crowded, busy mall full of innocents and their offspring, who just want to enjoy the day shopping and playing at the designated "play center."

There is INSUFFICIENT training in the standard carry curriculum and a lack of adequate education in "the law" to meet that standard of ....

...wearing a handgun ... in "shoot-don't shoot" situations and .... exercising good judgment when the a crowded, busy mall full of innocents and their offspring, who just want to enjoy the day shopping and playing at the designated "play center."

In Texas, which BTW has some of the highest LE training standards in the country and whose standards were often used by many states attempting to upgrade their training, according to my last inventory the basic peace officer curriculum for licensing had about 120 total hours of the topics that are covered by the concealed carry course in about 10 ... and the Texas DPS has roughly 500-600 hours in their training academy for new hires! (That's after passing a background check and a psych exam!)

When you can "unass" a pistol, place two rounds into center mass with a 90% rate at seven meters, and reholster under three seconds, then we can talk "tools"! That should be the standard if one is to carry a pistol into the mall, along with adequate instruction on the loads to carry.

[oeb11]

Thank You - UC and LL for a good discussion. I am in general agreement.
Texas CC classes now require only 5 hours of classroom instruction and test - I took 8 hours required.
It is far from adequate to prepare a person for the responsibility of carry - concealed or open
At my class - the instructor asked what one should do if one comes home and sees a thief caring a tv outside running away. One guy jumped up- "Shoot the SOB". That is a ticket to prison.

Training in exigent circumstances, and reading and knowing the State Statutes regarding carry and use of deadly force should be part of it.

While CC permits are not likely to require the training of LE. we should have the funding to do better. And CC applicants can pay more for their courses.
fortunately - there have been few incidents in my home state - Doesn't mean it should not be considered.

5 hours of training class is inadequate.

With respect to LL - how quickly one can draw and fire is secondary by a long way to using one's brain with good training in a situation that might require deadly force.

Most of us are aware that if one fires, misses, and kills a bystander - One is on the hook for manslaughter charges.

[Unique_Carpenter]

LL,

You've hit the key concept of "perceived" issues.
In addition to neighbor or other grudge crap, there's also politicians that "perceive" they know the answer, which perceived answer is wrongfully restricting a basic joe citizen from carrying.

The actual issue is stopping criminals from having weapons, and there's plenty of laws that can be used to enforce that. Of course, that has to be done on a case by case basis.

[bamscram]

A good guy with a gun will stop a bad guy with a gun, unless the police mistaken the good guy and shoot him.

[oeb11]

Originally Posted by bamscram

A good guy with a gun will stop a bad guy with a gun, unless the police mistaken the good guy and shoot him.

First part - not necessarily, although desirable.
Second part - Yes- it has happened. All the more reason to know how to cooperate with police and prevent official firearm accidents.

And your point is- ???
Likely - take guns away from the populace and that will solve the problem of a populace armed and ready to defend itself against DPS-Totalitarianism. Take a look at Honduras -citizens cannot protect themselves against the MS13 and other armed gangs, and the govt cannot and will not stamp out the armed gangs.
But - if you are member of MS13 it is a perfect world.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by bamscram

A good guy with a gun will stop a bad guy with a gun, unless the police mistaken the good guy and shoot him.

You left out the more likely scenario ...

(1)... the good guy "stopped" a good guy mistaking him or her for a bad guy .... or ....

(2) missed the bad guy and hit a good guy ... or

(3) used the wrong loads for the environment and the pass through hit a good guy down range .... or

(4) ... hadn't kept his weapon cleaned and stove-piped after missing the bad guy and the bad guy "stopped" the hero!

The list is almost endless of the results of want-a-bes engaging themselves in an unrehearsed OK Corral scenario in the Mall.

But I'm sure all those shortcomings can be explained to a jury in the civil trial after the criminal trial ... and I'm also sure all of that was fairly and adequately brief during the CC training by the well-versed instructor.

[oeb11]

LL - you have good points

And, you write as experienced with CC
I think 5 hours is nowhere near adquate to impart the law and thoughtfulness for safe carry.

That curriculum needs an overhaul.

[oeb11]

According to local law in Kennesaw, Georgia, “every head of household residing in the city limits is required to maintain a firearm."
While the 1982 law isn’t actually enforced, the town’s mayor spoke highly of it nonetheless.
"If you're going to commit a crime in Kennesaw and you're the criminal -- are you going to take a chance that that homeowner is a law-abiding citizen?" asked Kennesaw Mayor Derek Easterling, reports CNN.
Lt. Craig Graydon of the Kennesaw Police Department explained the law “was meant to be kind of a crime deterrent.”
And while it’s difficult to prove a causal relationship between the law and crime in the town, Kennesaw, which boasts a population of 33,000 people, has a violent crime rate of less than 2 percent and has only had one murder in the last six years.


From CNN:https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/06/us/ke...hip/index.html
Hardly a NRA mouthpiece.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by oeb11

...
Lt. Craig Graydon of the Kennesaw Police Department explained the law “was meant to be kind of a crime deterrent.”
And while it’s difficult to prove a causal relationship between the law and crime in the town, Kennesaw, which boasts a population of 33,000 people, has a violent crime rate of less than 2 percent and has only had one murder in the last six years.
...

That reminds me of a conversation I had about 40 years ago with a resident of St. Croix about the violent crime rate on the island. He said not much, because local LE just shuts down the island and the first person to jump in the water to swim is the guilty one!

Small communities know each other and that can be bad, but it also can be a good thing. They will look out for each other and the other person's property, but they will also recognize and pay attention to a newcomer or "stranger" just arriving.

[oeb11]

Interesting point.

Unfortunately, so little of America is small town anymore.

I grew up in a small town- all the Mom's knew all the kids, and families all knew each other.

Those days are gone.