businesspeople who classify employees as contractors are assholes

[Budman]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Nothing's changed about capitalism. Ford realized he needed to pay more to draw and retain a quality work force. That fundamental principal hasn't changed. Raise your wages until it works.

That's a pretty simplistic viewpoint. Of course you can raise your wages to twice what the market is paying and I'm sure you will have plenty of employees for a short time. That is until you close your doors. To be competitive in the construction industry you must keep your labor cost down. Labor is the largest cost for most contractors so paying above market is not feasible if you want to stay competitive. I've had a lot of people work for me over the years and many never understood how this relationship works. I paid based on what you can do for me to make money. At some point you will be maxed out at your hourly wage for the job you are doing. If you can't or won't do more for the company then you are stuck are your current wage until the market dictates increases. I didn't choose your career path,you did. If you want to make 150 grand a year then you shouldn't have chosen manual labor as your career. This is not a criticism but a reality check. I started out at 16 as a laborer making $1.65 PH. I never went to a job where I didn't want the guys job that was above me. I worked my ass off my entire life and have been fairly successful but not because of mandated wages. A good work ethic along with some common sense can get you a long way regardless of your chosen career. To many people believe they are due a high paying job. That's bullshit. Employees are there for one reason and that is what can you do for the company to be successful. I don't hire people because I need friends.

Originally Posted by friendly fred

It would be nice if the free market paid $15 per hour plus benefits for those jobs, to legal American workers, obviously of any race.

Regardless of what the market or government decides the minimum wage should be there will always be poor people. You can't legislate wealth. Minimum wage is typically an entry level position for the young. However, some never make it past that entry level mentality and are destined to a life of poverty thru no ones fault but their own.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Budman

That's a pretty simplistic viewpoint. Of course you can raise your wages to twice what the market is paying and I'm sure you will have plenty of employees for a short time. That is until you close your doors. To be competitive in the construction industry you must keep your labor cost down. Labor is the largest cost for most contractors so paying above market is not feasible if you want to stay competitive. I've had a lot of people work for me over the years and many never understood how this relationship works. I paid based on what you can do for me to make money. At some point you will be maxed out at your hourly wage for the job you are doing. If you can't or won't do more for the company then you are stuck are your current wage until the market dictates increases. I didn't choose your career path,you did. If you want to make 150 grand a year then you shouldn't have chosen manual labor as your career. This is not a criticism but a reality check. I started out at 16 as a laborer making $1.65 PH. I never went to a job where I didn't want the guys job that was above me. I worked my ass off my entire life and have been fairly successful but not because of mandated wages. A good work ethic along with some common sense can get you a long way regardless of your chosen career. To many people believe they are due a high paying job. That's bullshit. Employees are there for one reason and that is what can you do for the company to be successful. I don't hire people because I need friends.

Yes, it is simplistic, and "no" it won't work if your competitors are exploiting a pool of cheap labor ... and that's why this pool of cheap labor needs to be stopped at the border.

And Ford did pay his work force about twice the daily salary paid by his competitors, and he was very successful.

Originally Posted by Budman

Regardless of what the market or government decides the minimum wage should be there will always be poor people. You can't legislate wealth. Minimum wage is typically an entry level position for the young. However, some never make it past that entry level mentality and are destined to a life of poverty thru no ones fault but their own.

"Rich" and "poor" are relative terms; thus, in a group of 100 people, someone will always have the distinct disadvantage of being poorest in the group.

When J P Morgan died in 1913, his net worth was $68.3 million ($1.39 billion in today's dollars); yet, Andrew Carnegie purportedly commented, “And to think, he wasn’t even a wealthy man.”

[WTF]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Yes, it is simplistic, and "no" it won't work if your competitors are exploiting a pool of cheap labor ... and that's why this pool of cheap labor needs to be stopped at the border.

So do you propose we shut down the importation of goods made from 'cheap labor'.

Like Trump ties and clothes sold by Trump's daughter?

AS you well know that those items can be produced here without exploiting a cheap labor pool....

What are your thoughts on Fed Ex and UPS. One exploiting 'contract labor' and the other unionized?

https://www.therichest.com/business/...d-then-decide/

So how are these two home delivery juggernauts so different? The simplest answer is: Unions. That’s right. UPS drivers and other employees of the company are represented under a collective bargaining agreement between the International Brotherhood of Teamsters and the United Parcel Service. Under the agreement, UPS employees are given a robust pension package. They have a healthcare plan that extends coverage to spouses who don’t have their own employer-based plans. And a driver at UPS can make a healthy $70,000 per year.

By contrast, FedEx drivers are not represented by a union. Many don’t have health insurance plans. There is no company retirement plan (some have 401k plans). And many pay for their own trucks and fuel. Don’t think that is possible? It is. One of the little known facts about FedEx Ground — the part of the company that competes with UPS Ground, the entity that performs home delivery — is that many of the drivers aren’t employees of FedEx at all. They are independent contractors working for themselves; assuming a good deal of risk while Federal Express rakes in huge profits.

[Budman]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Yes, it is simplistic, and "no" it won't work if your competitors are exploiting a pool of cheap labor ... and that's why this pool of cheap labor needs to be stopped at the border.

And Ford did pay his work force about twice the daily salary paid by his competitors, and he was very successful.



"Rich" and "poor" are relative terms; thus, in a group of 100 people, someone will always have the distinct disadvantage of being poorest in the group.

When J P Morgan died in 1913, his net worth was $68.3 million ($1.39 billion in today's dollars); yet, Andrew Carnegie purportedly commented, “And to think, he wasn’t even a wealthy man.”

I don't buy the notion that the labor from illegals is cheap at least in the Texas construction industry. There is definitely a saving when paying contract labor v/ employee but the hourly wage isn't cheaper because of their legal status IMO. I do agree we need to secure our border and streamline our immigration policy.



Of course rich and poor are relative terms. The poorest people in this country are probably considered wealthy by some in other parts of the world. BFD. The point is regardless of the minimum wage or a "living wage" as some are calling for the lowest paid workers will always be poor and struggle to make ends meet. Supply and demand are the only things that should raise wages. The only way to get yourself out of poverty is to work your ass off and become more valuable to your employer. I've had people ask for a raise and when I tell them that you are not doing anything that deserves a raise their response has been "I will work harder if you pay me more". My answer to that is fuck off. You just told me that you are a slacker and most likely will never be any further up the economic ladder than you are today.

[nevergaveitathought]

fed ex ground service is run by business owners, usually they have more than one route and many times hire employees themselves

they purchase their routes from fed ex, and they purchase trucks, they hire drivers and they can buy out single route owners (who can sell, unlike losing a job)

as in all walks of life there are different types of people that become fed ex ground owners and those different people use this model for their own purposes, some drivers want just one route (usually a single zip code) and be home by noon and are happy with $30,000 net each year but others want to run theirs like a business and expand

and like for any other business, there is a chance to out perform

as others do in the trucking industry, they can remain owner/operators or they can expand and become entrepreneurs

this setup is a standard trucking industry and/or route sales practice and doesn't run afoul of employee/contractor status with the IRS

to compare different models as to outcomes when there are different reasons for people to be attracted to each is not always comparing apples to apples

[WTF]

Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

this setup is a standard trucking industry and/or route sales practice and doesn't run afoul of employee/contractor status with the IRS

You might want to do a tad more research....the courts are weighing in on this business model and have sided on the side that they in fact are employees.

It is not cut and dried either way.

I almost bought a bunch of Fed Ex routes and spent a good deal of money on this research. Fed Ex collects the money and can take away your routes if you do not maintain a certain delivery rate.

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by WTF

You might want to do a tad more research....the courts are weighing in on this business model and have sided on the side that they in fact are employees.

no need, im right, I said IRS,

the IRS wasn't the one pushing this, and I said doesn't run afoul of the IRS

of course just about anyone can file suit against anyone for just about anything

but even then nothing in the courts was seen all the way through

some single route owners filed suit trying to get overtime. they wanted their cake and eat it too, independence and a shot at money then if they fail, file suit if they didn't work hard or expand and then lost money and district courts, especially in California, were saying that if you are a single zip code owner, then maybe

in 2014 fed ex settled out of court to get rid of them

now fed ex only contracts with multiple zip business owners

and so then your whole thing about comparing UPS and Fed Ex and their treatment of drivers is totally all wet, maybe you just copied and pasted some old leftist loon thing

I think it was 2014, FedEx tracked businesses they contract with, businesses with 4 drivers were averaging around 450K per year in revenues- some higher some lower

see your all wet post below:

Originally Posted by WTF

So how are these two home delivery juggernauts so different? The simplest answer is: Unions. That’s right. UPS drivers and other employees of the company are represented under a collective bargaining agreement between the International Brotherhood of Teamsters and the United Parcel Service. Under the agreement, UPS employees are given a robust pension package. They have a healthcare plan that extends coverage to spouses who don’t have their own employer-based plans. And a driver at UPS can make a healthy $70,000 per year.

By contrast, FedEx drivers are not represented by a union. Many don’t have health insurance plans. There is no company retirement plan (some have 401k plans). And many pay for their own trucks and fuel. Don’t think that is possible? It is. One of the little known facts about FedEx Ground — the part of the company that competes with UPS Ground, the entity that performs home delivery — is that many of the drivers aren’t employees of FedEx at all. They are independent contractors working for themselves; assuming a good deal of risk while Federal Express rakes in huge profits.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

and so then your whole thing about comparing UPS and Fed Ex and their treatment of drivers is totally all wet, maybe you just copied and pasted some old leftist loon thing

I think it was 2014, FedEx tracked businesses they contract with, businesses with 4 drivers were averaging around 450K per year in revenues- some higher some lower

see your all wet post below:

With each post you are showing how little you know about Fed Ex vs UPS. There is not a Fed Ex Ground driver that wouldn't switch places with a UPS driver in a heartbeat.

Please explain how my post of UPS drivers making 70k is comparable to Fed Ex drivers averaging 450k a year in REVENUE.

How much do you think the OWNER of those 4 routes (and I use the term owner loosely as he is only contracted out with Fed Ex for a certain time period to SERVICE those routes)

Below will help you understand the transition Fed Ex is going through.


https://www.browncafe.com/community/...-route.368008/

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by WTF

With each post you are showing how little you know about Fed Ex vs UPS. There is not a Fed Ex Ground driver that wouldn't switch places with a UPS driver in a heartbeat.

Please explain how my post of UPS drivers making 70k is comparable to Fed Ex drivers averaging 450k a year in REVENUE.

How much do you think the OWNER of those 4 routes (and I use the term owner loosely as he is only contracted out with Fed Ex for a certain time period to SERVICE those routes)

Below will help you understand the transition Fed Ex is going through.


https://www.browncafe.com/community/...-route.368008/

did you just try to pull a switch?

you said (or copied):

"By contrast, FedEx drivers are not represented by a union. Many don’t have health insurance plans. There is no company retirement plan (some have 401k plans). And many pay for their own trucks and fuel. Don’t think that is possible? It is. One of the little known facts about FedEx Ground — the part of the company that competes with UPS Ground, the entity that performs home delivery — is that many of the drivers aren’t employees of FedEx at all. They are independent contractors working for themselves; assuming a good deal of risk while Federal Express rakes in huge profits."

now are you are trying to reverse out of the above paragraph and say the comparison isn't between the contractor and the UPS worker, but a worker or helper employed by the contractor?

get real

[WTF]

Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

did you just try to pull a switch?

you said (or copied):

"By contrast, FedEx drivers are not represented by a union. Many don’t have health insurance plans. There is no company retirement plan (some have 401k plans). And many pay for their own trucks and fuel. Don’t think that is possible? It is. One of the little known facts about FedEx Ground — the part of the company that competes with UPS Ground, the entity that performs home delivery — is that many of the drivers aren’t employees of FedEx at all. They are independent contractors working for themselves; assuming a good deal of risk while Federal Express rakes in huge profits."

now are you are trying to reverse out of the above paragraph and say the comparison isn't between the contractor and the UPS worker, but a worker or helper employed by the contractor?

get real

I yried to warn you , you did not know wtf you were talking about.

The owner of the routes....say I bought 8 trucks with 8 drivers and a dispatcher who also drove and they generated 1 million in revenue. I'd make around 20-220k and never once would I have driven a truck.

You just do not know wtf you are talking about.

[nevergaveitathought]

Originally Posted by WTF

I yried to warn you , you did not know wtf you were talking about.

The owner of the routes....say I bought 8 trucks with 8 drivers and a dispatcher who also drove and they generated 1 million in revenue. I'd make around 20-220k and never once would I have driven a truck.

You just do not know wtf you are talking about.

what I don't know is I don't know what you are talking about

[WTF]

Hi

Originally Posted by nevergaveitathought

what I don't know is I don't know what you are talking about

UPS drivers make in salary and benefits way more then FedEx drivers do.

.....and of course you do not know what I'm talking about you were not trying to buy a million dollars worth of FedEx routes. So you have not done the research I have. There is only one type of route I'd by from Fed Exand you'd know wtf type of route that is if you know anything about Fed Ex.

[grean]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Yes, it is simplistic, and "no" it won't work if your competitors are exploiting a pool of cheap labor ... and that's why this pool of cheap labor needs to be stopped at the border.

And Ford did pay his work force about twice the daily salary paid by his competitors, and he was very successful.



"Rich" and "poor" are relative terms; thus, in a group of 100 people, someone will always have the distinct disadvantage of being poorest in the group.

When J P Morgan died in 1913, his net worth was $68.3 million ($1.39 billion in today's dollars); yet, Andrew Carnegie purportedly commented, “And to think, he wasn’t even a wealthy man.”

I of course am not trying to justify illegal labor.

I believe Fords business model would do pretty well even with those exploits by the competition to a degree, anyway for a few reasons. Most of them are because
cheap labor is unskilled labor. Also, cheap labor always looks for greener pastures to get paid more.

A skilled worker doesn't take as long to do a task.

The skilled worker does it better and with less mistakes.

Inexpensive materials that unskilled workers may not be able to use to make a quality final good can be used to make quality final goods by a skilled worker.

Once a unskilled laborer learns the trade better, they will demand more pay. They will leave to find a company willing to pay more. The company then has to hire and train another unskilled person.