Illegal Immigration.. your thoughts

[Mokoa]

The topic of this thread is Illegal Immigration.

Stay on that topic please.

[eqi]

I thought this garbage was already closed.

[eddiecruz]

Originally Posted by snotty1

eddiecruz- aren't all laws then unconstitutinal, since they pertain to only a small percent of the population. what you meant to say was its is directed at a specific micorcasm of the population and was passed for that purpose only. read the supreme copurt decision about Fl and santeria for better explanation.

What?

I think we're saying the same things.

The Santeria v. Florida case was about freedom of religion. This Arizona law is about equal protection and the 14th Amendment. As you know the 14th Amendment orders states not to deny equal protection under the law.

All laws are not inherently unconstitutional. I don't know where you got that from.

[eddiecruz]

I agree with EQI. I think this thread has run its course. Both sides have been adequately represented.

[TheBad]

As one of the "liberals" that are described here, I would like to respond and make my own comments:

1) Our country was created by immigrants. We have always held ourselves as the light that shines toward those who live in an oppressed world. Sure, it would be nice if immigrants from Mexico came here legally, but how do you expect this to occur?

2) Living in Mexico is for many, a dangerous and unfortunate existance. How can we expect them to stay where they are when the wealthy and powerful in Mexico ignore them and do nothing to fix the problems.

3) We complain about illegal immigrants from Mexico, but turn a blind eye to wealthy Mexican nationals that bring their families up here legally because they are constantly under threat of robbery, extortion, kidnapping and violence. As long as they purchase or operate a small business (whether it makes money or is productive or not), they can legally obtain a visa to live here. A recent Express News article mentions that one Mexican national said that losing $3-4 thousand a month on a San Antonio business was a small price to pay to keep his family here while he make lots of money operating his main busines in Matamoros.

As long as we allow wealthy and powerful Mexican nationals to bring their families here to avoid the problems in their own country, they will NEVER fix the problems that cause the poor to try to illegally enter our country.

Think about this: If enough wealthy Mexican nationals move up here to escape the robberies and kidnappings-for-ransom, there will be no one left to threaten. What do you think the criminals will do, then? Quit trying? Hell, no. They will just come up to San Antonio and Houston and Dallas and come into your neighborhood and find the Mexican nationals and threaten them here.

[oden]

Wow, how do I begin. Let's start with no one comes in unless we know who you are. Next if you hire or have on your payroll an undocumented person you face civil and criminal charges. If you are convicted of aiding and abetting the trafficking of humans you go to jail.

Now let's say that legal work share agreements are put in place for not just tomato pickers but engineers and we require the same workforce protections that we do for anyone in our country. We allow for legal work share parents that have children born here automatically granted American citizenship while undocumented would not. And finally, make it as big a crime for an Arab or Asian to jump a visa as a Hispanic. Finally, no duel citizenship and all Federal election materials in English.

[Sa_artman]

[quote]

Originally Posted by oden

Wow, how do I begin. Let's start with no one comes in unless we know who you are.

Well, what do you think the border patrol do now? They don't wantonly let people wander in. I assume you've traveled through one of the checkpoints before? This perception that the good men and women at the borders are not doing they're job is baloney. Enforcement takes money, equipment, manpower and facilities. Where should we get that? Everyone's so afraid of taxing and government and then want them to somehow pull the resources out of a magic hat. It's just not realistic to expect border patrol to catch everyone coming in nor is realistic to expect them to find the resources to somehow get on a first name basis with everyone traveling both ways.

Next if you hire or have on your payroll an undocumented person you face civil and criminal charges. If you are convicted of aiding and abetting the trafficking of humans you go to jail.

Now let's say that legal work share agreements are put in place for not just tomato pickers but engineers and we require the same workforce protections that we do for anyone in our country. We allow for legal work share parents that have children born here automatically granted American citizenship while undocumented would not. And finally, make it as big a crime for an Arab or Asian to jump a visa as a Hispanic. Finally, no duel citizenship and all Federal election materials in English.

Everything you mention here requires one thing...$$ Agencies, special enforcement divisions, case workers...etc...more bureaucracy. I don't think a majority of the people dispute there are problems with the borders or that illegals are crossing or that we need to control inflow, but those same people wave banners admonishing government intervention, taxation, and spending. I'm not disagreeing with you, just putting my perspective on it. That all sounds very idealistic, just like someone saying 'Gee, let's just close the borders'.

We need Mexico's money coming this way. We import over 200 billion in goods from them (and conversely less then 180 billion exported) and with that comes the ugly side effects of a under funded border system.

[Budman]

[quote=Sa_artman;426380]

Well, what do you think the border patrol do now? They don't wantonly let people wander in. I assume you've traveled through one of the checkpoints before? This perception that the good men and women at the borders are not doing they're job is baloney. Enforcement takes money, equipment, manpower and facilities. Where should we get that? Everyone's so afraid of taxing and government and then want them to somehow pull the resources out of a magic hat. It's just not realistic to expect border patrol to catch everyone coming in nor is realistic to expect them to find the resources to somehow get on a first name basis with everyone traveling both ways.


Everything you mention here requires one thing...$$ Agencies, special enforcement divisions, case workers...etc...more bureaucracy. I don't think a majority of the people dispute there are problems with the borders or that illegals are crossing or that we need to control inflow, but those same people wave banners admonishing government intervention, taxation, and spending. I'm not disagreeing with you, just putting my perspective on it. That all sounds very idealistic, just like someone saying 'Gee, let's just close the borders'.

We need Mexico's money coming this way. We import over 200 billion in goods from them (and conversely less then 180 billion exported) and with that comes the ugly side effects of a under funded border system.

People admonishing goverment intervention are not referring to the protection of this country. The job of the Federal Goverment is the protection of it's citizens and this includes protecting our borders so that we know who is entering this country. You're correct that it takes money to do this but is also takes the belief that this is the right thing to do and this administration does not have that (previous administrations didn't either). They seem to print money for every kind of social agenda but refuse to do anything about the borders.

As stated in my previous post in regards to the employer:

3. You and many others like to make the employers out as the “Bad Guys” in this issue when in reality it is the government’s lack of enforcement of the current laws as well as their ridiculously slow “Legal Immigration” process. As an employer you are given a list of documents that are acceptable forms of ID. One of these ID’s along w/ a SS card is all that is needed for employment. Employers are not forgery experts and until the feds put a simple process in place where you can verify if the documents are legit you should not lay the blame on the employers . I know of a case where after several years of employment a company was notified by the IRS of a bad SS number. After making sure that they had submitted the correct number (based on the SS card used by the employee) they determined that this was a fake SS card. When speaking w/ the IRS the employer stated that they were going to fire the employee. The IRS strongly advised the employer not to do that because it could violate employment laws and open them up to a law suit.

[fatenchilada]

Illegal aliens today are not just gardeners and domestics.

Most of the jobs illegal immigrants are doing today are jobs citizens used to do which are not ideal but they used to do them anyway, such as manufacturing, poultry and beef processing, construction, food service, etc. These are jobs which would be taken by the unemployed once their unemployment benefits from their better jobs ran out. They are not ideal jobs but in times past the unemployed would settle for them to pay bills.

The immigration which built this country was was very controlled, and whenever the illegal immigration from south of the border got out of hand there would be a crack-down and huge round-ups directed from Washington, like "Operation Wetback" under the Eisenhower administration.

The kind of illegal immigration going on in the last twenty years is totally unprecidented.

As for the problems of Mexico today....the same situation down there exactly 100 years ago, and the U.S army had to intervene. We need to take our troops back from Afganistan now and begin operations in Mexico to clean out that mess and "drain the swamp."

[Sa_artman]

Originally Posted by fatenchilada

As for the problems of Mexico today....the same situation down there exactly 100 years ago, and the U.S army had to intervene. We need to take our troops back from Afganistan now and begin operations in Mexico to clean out that mess and "drain the swamp."

Cool! Can we sign you up first to head on down and clean that mess up? It's that easy huh? Wish we had more big brains like you in our Government.

[bigrich75]

Originally Posted by fatenchilada

Illegal aliens today are not just gardeners and domestics.

Most of the jobs illegal immigrants are doing today are jobs citizens used to do which are not ideal but they used to do them anyway, such as manufacturing, poultry and beef processing, construction, food service, etc. These are jobs which would be taken by the unemployed once their unemployment benefits from their better jobs ran out. They are not ideal jobs but in times past the unemployed would settle for them to pay bills.

geeze i wonder WHY THE CITIZENS dont do them NOW?!?!?
maybe cuz they wont do that sort of shit labor for say anything less than $18/hr(for example)?

lets see.. let me hire a "wetback" to pick and harvest fruit and whatnot for $8/hr or pay by bushel, OR let me hire a "citizen" for $12/hr PLUS medical PLUS any other shit they demand, PLUS have them in a union...
ok lets hire the citizen... now we will happily pay, i dont know lets see, like $10 for that little thing of strawberries we love to eat, instead of like $3.75; or lets pay like $5/lb for some oranges and etc...

and its horseshit that the unemployed would take those jobs... i know alot of themtoday who wouldnt.. what for? they get free money from everywhere plus foodstamps and all this shit; so why work? they got it made.

[m00ndragon]

seems that in light of the upcoming law taking effect half a million illegal immagrants have left arizona already.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_usa_immigration_arizona

here is a revised version of the senate bill in arizona http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.pdf

PERMITTED BY FEDERAL LAW.
20 B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW
21 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW
22 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF
23 THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO
24 IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE
25 MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON,
26 EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION. ANY
27 PERSON WHO IS ARRESTED SHALL HAVE THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS DETERMINED
28 BEFORE THE PERSON IS RELEASED. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE
29 VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION
30 1373(c). A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY,
31 CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY
32 CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF
33 THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR
34 ARIZONA CONSTITUTION. A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS
35 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW
36 ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
37 1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE.
38 2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE.
39 3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL
40 IDENTIFICATION.


that is just the main thing that they are talking about.

[oneman]

Illegal, so what? If anyone on here says they oppose it because it is illegal, they are the pot calling the kettle black.

I hire wetbacks all of the time, the first generation wetbacks work hard. The second and third generation ones seem to want a handout from the system.

I guess I am like you, a hypocrite. Illegal, get real. I dont want them here because I dont want them to be a drain on our system.

[lacanterra]

I want to thank everyone for their thoughts and individual opinions. I am not sure this subject will ever be rectified or there will ever be an outcome to satisfy everyone.
I started this Topic and I appreciate all the time and effort you have put into this. After all that has been said and done, I still stand by my own personal thoughts, as I am sure each and everyone of you do as well. To some it may all seem ignorant, or unrealistic and any other kind of term you wish to use to express it. I truly feel something needs to be done, and from the looks of it, it is about to start in Arizona. Just look at the headline's of the mass exodus taking place.
Realistically... look and think of what happens when you, me or anyone else was to enter another country illegally? There are and will be serious consequences to pay.
In my opinion we need to be as tough, if not tougher as the other countries in the world are...
NO MATTER WHAT IT TAKES.

I have asked the Mod to close this Topic as I again believe it has run its course.

Thanks again to all of you
Regards,
Lacanterra

[Mokoa]

Closed at the request of the OP.