Reparations for slavery: pro or con?

[john_galt]

That is what history is all about or hadn't you heard? You were doing so well and then...

[JRLawrence]

Well everyone,

I think we all agree on the history. I also agree with JohnG with his discussion and for the most part his conclusions.

My point was that things are never simple. Reparation for slavery would bring reparation for many other groups who also suffered at this time and other times.

My point in the discussion was in support of JohnG by pointing out that there were multiple factors leading to the breakdown of the relationship between the regions that lead to the Civil War. But personally, I grow weary of hearing that slavery was THE cause of the Civil War, as if it was the one and only cause. Sorry, things are more complicated than that. To say that any group in history deserves this, because of that, simply has not made any effort in the study of either the political history or the history of technology.

My point in the discussion of the brass cannon was: it is usually not political or social history that drives events, but the history of technical development. Suppose we speculate: what if the smelting of zinc had not been developed and/or the North had not acquired the very few brass cannon, that went to one of the very few officers who was capable of understanding the significance, and what if these guns had not arrived just in time to be put into action at the First Battle of Bull Run, and what if because the guns were not there the South overrun the Northern Army at the beginning of the War before Lincoln had popular support for the War.

What if the Great Lakes shipping had not been developed for just a few more years and what if the locks that allowed large vessels into Lake Superior had not been completed.

What if; East bound Rail systems had been built in the South, with the Support of the North, and the Cotton Gin had been developed sooner, would slavery have vanished due to lack of need? We will never know. A nice long discussion over a couple of beers with friends who enjoy history.

Things develop on their own, usually because of the ongoing march of technology. sometimes we are only along for the ride. No group is to blame, and no group is superior because of history.

Likewise; no group, or nation, should feel obligated to make restitution for past history. Just because that is how things were does not indicate that that is how things are now. We can not change the past, we can only try to do better with the present.

JR

[thorough9]

I may be wrong, but I don't remember anyone in this thread advocating reparations. John Galt, incorrectly, labeled reparations a hot topic in the for/against Professor Goodwin Liu debate - a topic that wasn't even mentioned in his failed confirmation hearings. Then came the typical chorus of "where's mine" and the like, but that's why the subject was raised in the first place..... I mean seriously - who, in their right mind, would actually expect anything from the same selfish bastards who want to cut or eradicate every social program in the United States while giving subsidies to billionaires - the same selfish bastards who think that helping other people is OMG.... socialism. If reparations were ever approved, the south would seceed - again. LOL. You say that my response was twisted by my emotions; I say that your response is twisted by your politics. No one is saying that "because slavery was the cause of the Civil War, you owe slaves reparations". You're so worried that someone else might "deserve" something that you don't, that you're biased. Reparations are moot and have been for at least a century. So, remove that angle and re-analyze your responses. But to do that, to re-analyze, is to admit that the slant existed in the first place - which is highly unlikely. History is just that - history. But history tells a story of the capabilities of man. For every wrong there IS blame assigned - if not how would laws be possible. And i have no ides where you got the "no one is superior" rhetoric.

You say that you're weary of hearing that slavery was THE cause of the Civil War, I'm sick-to-death of hearing southern sympathizers trying to re-write history and paint the south as hapless victims of Northern manipulations. To hear you tell it, the citizens of the south were a bunch of gullible and nieve innocents who were forced to fight to defend their honor. NEWS FLASH: There is nothing honorable, or noble, or commendable about the commission of, or support of the commision of, or fighting to preserve, an atrocity.

Here's a what if for you: What if there were no slaves - would there ever have been a Civil War?

You say that technology was/is the driving force behind most events. OK. I'd like to know what technology was the driving force behind slavery. Was it the new aero-dynamically designed 400 passenger naval sloops? Or the new blend of pig-iron and titanium shackles? Maybe it was the was the invention of the new quick-cattle-brand that was proven to be 88% less painful on cows, than on humans.....

This thread does, however, illuminate one of the most persistent and ever-growing problems in America, especially in the political sphere. Facts are facts, and truth is truth. Truth is not debatable. Truth is not open to interpretation. When people try to slant the truth, or put an angle on the truth, or interpret the truth, to make it fit their own purposes, then the truth becomes a lie. There is no "safety in numbers" as far as lies are concerned - then or now. When a lie is told, perpetuated, and institutionalized, eventually it comes back to bite you in the ass - the truth bites you - not the lie - the lie hold no power - the power is in the truth.

History is about facts - not your interpretation of facts - the facts themselves. And who better to make a more accurate interpretation anyway - one who lived it, or one who wants to re-analyze the situation 150 years later. If you REALLY want to know what was the cause of the Civil War, read Lincoln's Second Inaugaral Address. He was there. He made the decision. He is the Subject Matter Expert. He should know.
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/spee...raladdress.htm

[thorough9]

Originally Posted by john_galt

That is what history is all about or hadn't you heard? You were doing so well and then...

Bite Me....

Dear John,

Last I heard, there was/is/will not be any proposed law concerning reparations. I know that you've yet to comprehend this most disarming fact, and that things must be repeated to you in order for you to sucessfully comprehend, so just copy and paste it a couple of times - you're pretty good at that. LOL. But considering that there was/is/will not be any such law concerning reparations, just what slippery activism slope were you addressing? You have sucessfully warned us of the hypothetical slippery slope of a hypothetical situation that doesn't exist - you bring to mind another fellow who recently warned us of another impending hypothetical. LOL.

John, there does not need to be a specific reference to slavery in the constitution, just as there is no specific reference in the constitution to chickens, cows, and horses either. Slavery was a reality in the US, and the constitution did not have to address slavery directly as long as it directly labeled the slave 3/5's of a person. So, I'll go out on a limb and say that the 3/5's of a person rule, written into the constitution, is indeed reference enough, as well as complicit and tacit approval.

John, all of the northern states eventually abolished slavery, but John, Pennsylvania had the weakest slave law of all. Pennsylvania would not allow the sale of slaves, but did not free the slaves that were already held.

John, the extra information that you supplied about the territorial aspirations of the south was..... extra. I'm sure that you've made some new friends and impressed others with your vast wealth of knowledge and your grasp of what is and is not useful information in an argument....

John, you are correct in saying that some can make the argument that the first shot was fired in Kansas. You're right(ego stroking). Some can, but there's that pesky thing about Ft Sumner that those pesky historians just won't let go - i know, huh - they're so wrong on that one....


There had been some discussion about Lincoln forcing the issue and forcing the south's hand - those discussions took place in.... the south. LOL. Federal troops marching on federal land - absolutely outrageous - I'd have seceeded too! Lincoln was a fool for not making like U.P.S. and asking the south "What can brown can do for you?" (I'm glad that Lincoln didn't go to the south talking about "what can Brown do - they'd have plopped his "brown" ass right into the slave quarters with the other "browns"), LOL, but I'd like to say that the US government has never negotiated with terrorists. But now I'm confused. Which is it? He could have, or he couldn't have?

Would you like to know why secession could never work? B/c once started, there would have been no end to secession. The south seceeds from the union, Cuba(LMAO) seceed from the south, Havana seceeds from Cuba, the East-siders seceed from the West-siders, there's a big knife-fight. It's just too messy......

Now John, this is where we must part. It's not you - It's me(more ego stroking). I will miss your never-ending partisan bullshit as well as your continual efforts at polarization. You're egotistical grandstanding and the loads of material irrelevant to your own arguments will also be missed. But you will never be too far away, John. Whenever I want to know what you're thinking, all I have to do is turn on FOX news or tune in to Conservative talk radio - listen to a little Bill or Rush or Glen.....

P.S. The North won the war.
P.P.S. The south will not rise again - I repeat - will not.

[john_galt]

Once again as I was reading your post I dozed off and didn't finish. Your teeth must always be purple from all that Kool Aid you have drank. I can tell you that you just don't want to understand so I'm finished with you. For a bad thread it sure generated a lot of attention in spite of what you think. So I'm going to ask the webmaster to close this thread since I know when someone is a lost cause and a waste of time.

Please close this thread. It is getting tedious.

[herfacechair]

Originally Posted by JRLawrence

9. The South got the first real hit on the North with the first battle of Bull Run. The war could have been over at that moment as the South pushed the retreating Northern Army on several fronts. The flanking attach that would have sealed the retreating Northing Army and possibly finishing the war as it started was stopped because of newly acquired brass cannon. The cannon used allowed the Northern Army to escape without the aid of any supporting troops; just the few guns (two or three -I don't remember the exact count just now) that could keep repeating fire that iron cannon could not.

Here's a look at that battle from an infantryman's perspective…

Both Armies weren't combat tested. But a couple things helped the South before the battle began. Movement to contact took place in Virginia, Confederate territory. Also, they had different elements in specific areas that allowed them to change the battle in their favor. The Union thought that they'd be able to secure a quick victory by deploying their troops toward Richmond, and to neutralize the confederate troops near Richmond.

The Northerners originally pushed the Southerners back until Confederate reinforcement arrives. Then the Confederates pushed the Northerners back toward Washington. Each side's artillery had their own advantages; each side used their artillery effectively. Southern artillery played a roll in forcing the Union forces back toward Washington.

Key to the Confederate's ability to turn the tide was Stonewall Jackson, who held his ground until re-enforcements arrived. His failure to do that would've lead to a tactical victory for the Union.

The Union forces were able to use their artillery to help cover the unorganized Union retreat, but that's not the major, or main, reason, the South didn't pursue. Stonewall Jackson's battle buddy's army was disorganized, and wasn't able to make good on regaining contact.

A hot air balloon recon of the objective area, shortly after that battle, showed that there was no interest on the South's part to push towards Washington to end this, "once and for all."

The battle was a tactical victory for the Confederacy. Both sides saw that this was going to be a long, drawn out war with no quick victories. Even if they would've captured the Union Forces, the war would've continued on.

[JRLawrence]

Originally Posted by herfacechair

....................

Key to the Confederate's ability to turn the tide was Stonewall Jackson, who held his ground until re-enforcements arrived. His failure to do that would've lead to a tactical victory for the Union.

The Union forces were able to use their artillery to help cover the unorganized Union retreat, but that's not the major, or main, reason, the South didn't pursue. Stonewall Jackson's battle buddy's army was disorganized, and wasn't able to make good on regaining contact.

A hot air balloon recon of the objective area, shortly after that battle, showed that there was no interest on the South's part to push towards Washington to end this, "once and for all."

The battle was a tactical victory for the Confederacy. Both sides saw that this was going to be a long, drawn out war with no quick victories. Even if they would've captured the Union Forces, the war would've continued on.

Wow, very good. I did not know that about the balloon recon. Thank you. From my reading about the first true brass alloy (production of zinc) the impression was left that it was not only the new cannon that stopped the Confederacy, but it was the cannon alone that stopped the capture of the Union troops.

Anyway,

It is long over, and I agree the questions are moot. A study of history does give us insight into how we should make decisions today.

I do believe that without slavery, we would have still had a civil war due to the regional differences. I believe that history supports this view. In addition to the anger and prejudices due to regional differences, when the anger over slavery is thrown into the soup: the pot boiled over.

JR

[JRLawrence]

Originally Posted by thorough9

..... You're so worried that someone else might "deserve" something that you don't, that you're biased. ...

Nope, Deserve has nothing to do with it. I also believe that we get what we earn. To expect government handouts, that usually will not happen, is just plain stupid. However, I admit that I was happy to take the money from the VA for additional schooling after Nam. I continue to take the VA disability that I don't think I earned when I saw so many others with far greater loss than I.[/COLOR]

Originally Posted by thorough9

..... For every wrong there IS blame assigned - if not how would laws be possible. ......... NEWS FLASH: There is nothing honorable, or noble, or commendable about the commission of, or support of the commision of, or fighting to preserve, an atrocity. ............

NEWS FLASH FOR YOU!
The world is not perfect, laws are not perfect, and if you expect justice from the legal system; you haven't been there. Sometimes a person is just lucky to get something resolved with the legal system.

The point is there are no easy answers, we all must learn to think on many levels. I pity you, if you still think the North is all good, and the South is all bad. By the way, I am not Southern, and I have no sympathy for either region. The key thought I am trying to get you to understand is that "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You need to get a lot of knowledge before we can begin to listen to you. Shallow statements from shallow prejudiced people is not allowed among educated people. Most of the time they just ignore that type, and don't invite them back. Here you have had your chance to chime in. OK, now we all know you for what you are: prejudiced, uninformed, and capable of only thinking one level at a time. Nothing is that simple! I am tired of reading your posts, go play with the children.

JR

[thorough9]

Originally Posted by JRLawrence

Nope, Deserve has nothing to do with it. I also believe that we get what we earn. To expect government handouts, that usually will not happen, is just plain stupid. However, I admit that I was happy to take the money from the VA for additional schooling after Nam. I continue to take the VA disability that I don't think I earned when I saw so many others with far greater loss than I.[/color]

NEWS FLASH FOR YOU!
The world is not perfect, laws are not perfect, and if you expect justice from the legal system; you haven't been there. Sometimes a person is just lucky to get something resolved with the legal system.

The point is there are no easy answers, we all must learn to think on many levels. I pity you, if you still think the North is all good, and the South is all bad. By the way, I am not Southern, and I have no sympathy for either region. The key thought I am trying to get you to understand is that "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You need to get a lot of knowledge before we can begin to listen to you. Shallow statements from shallow prejudiced people is not allowed among educated people. Most of the time they just ignore that type, and don't invite them back. Here you have had your chance to chime in. OK, now we all know you for what you are: prejudiced, uninformed, and capable of only thinking one level at a time. Nothing is that simple! I am tired of reading your posts, go play with the children.

JR

Your shallow, little, "I'm so knowledgeable and above the fray" veneer has officially been shredded. In you came, with your eroneous facts, and new slants, and additional information, and because you didn't get enough "at'ta boys" and "thanks JR's", you act like a child and throw what amounts to a childish hissy-fit. SO F'n what!! And you say grow up. That's funny. You are presented with an opinion that is different from yours, and you fall apart -Oh F'N well.

And you're still talking about Government handouts. Guess what, you 're the only one talking about them. You and John Galt. You read what you want and ignore the rest - Just F'n Typical. And self-admittedly, you're a hypocrite who's going on-and-on about handouts when you've taken them, and are still taking them - undeservedly - by your own admission - is there any remaining doubt that you have no idea what to, or, what not to, say??

I don't need your self-righteous pity, and I didn't ask for it. You have no idea what I think, just that I'm not willing to swallow your bullshit about the south being victims. Who said that the North was all good - guess that you pulled that out of your ass... that's how idiots think: the world is either all good or all bad - you're either for us or against us - that's sad......

BTW, I am from the South, and being from the region is not enough to bais me toward it, one way or the other. I believe in truth and relevant facts. Don't try and get me to understand anything - just state your opinion and don't get mad when someone else doesn't agree with it. What'd you think: your superior grasp of frivolous knowledge would persuade others and convince them to see it your way? Give me a break....

I care less if YOU ever listen to me, but I will never allow someone else to make or change my position - unwarranted and unsupported - and your opinion is not supported well enough to change my mind. I care, even less, if that offends you - you're offended because I maintain my position but you accuse ME of acting like a child....

NEWS FLASH: A little knowledge is what it is. Any dumbass can learn a bunch of useless facts. Any dumbass can pass a history class, if they work hard enough at it. Knowledge is useless if you can't practically apply that knowledge to reality. There are plenty of knowledgeable, book-worm, stumbling, bumbling idiots in the world.

You and galt are now humming the same tune: He won't play by our rules - He won't listen to us, so let's not play with him anymore, but I'm the child.
Your pronouns have changed from "I" to "We" in your childish attempt to identify yourself as one of the clique, but I'm the child.

You can't combat what I have to say, so just like Galt, you wanna take your ball and go home - well take your little, sniveling, fragile ass ego onto the porch and you and Galt don't have to play with me. I don't need anyone to agree with me in order for me to feel secure about myself and/or my positions. and whenever you decide to come out again, bubble-boy, i'll be waiting.

[JRLawrence]

Originally Posted by thorough9

.......
You can't combat what I have to say, so just like Galt, you wanna take your ball and go home - well take your little, sniveling, fragile ass ego onto the porch and you and Galt don't have to play with me. I don't need anyone to agree with me in order for me to feel secure about myself and/or my positions. and whenever you decide to come out again, bubble-boy, i'll be waiting.

I don't think you want to learn anything new, or to look at other points of view; that is truly sad. I appreciate JohnG because he attempts to think, and learn, about the world as it truly is; because of this his emotional outburst are tolerated. People who want to learn consider knowledge and understanding to be very important, almost holy, and essential to human existence. All of us have different backgrounds and abilities; the key to life is if each of us attempts to increase our personal store of knowledge. You have either totally missed the point of our discussion or are joining the discussion just to harass.

Maybe, just maybe it is more serious with you. Are you so lonely that joining a discussion you don't understand is your only way to get attention. If so, it time to request an appointment with a metal health professional. You need to have an evaluation: are you really mentally deranged, or just conceitedly assertive and dogmatic? I went to the information concerning your ten reviews, and they tell us something: 8 out of 10 reviews are a recommendation not to see the girl again. Wow, 80% of the girls you paid to see gave you a bad time; I wonder why. I think that is some type of record. (Sorry, the second page shows you did a little better with a grand total of 12 no and 5 yes for a total reject rate of 71%; still pretty bad.)

It would be better if you tried to learn something new than to remain in ignorance. You have, however, reminded me of a Bible verse I was taught in my youth; I should have remembered this prior to having any discussion with you.

"Never give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs. Otherwise, they will trample them with their feet and then turn around and attack you."
Matthew 7:6 (International Standard Version)

For the future, you will have no problems with me, because I will block your posts and will no longer respond to you.

JR

[kcbigpapa]

JR, are you really resorting to quoting scripture on an escort review website?

Also, JG does not think or learn. He is in the mold of a Rush Limbaugh or Rachel Maddow follower. They feel better when they are told what to think instead of having an independent thought process. The only way you side with JG is because you share the same views.

[JRLawrence]

[QUOTE=kcbigpapa;1331744]JR, are you really resorting to quoting scripture on an escort review website?

Also, JG does not think or learn. He is in the mold of a Rush Limbaugh or Rachel Maddow follower. They feel better when they are told what to think instead of having an independent thought process. The only way you side with JG is because you share the same views.[/QUOTE

Good points: Thank you. I don't agree with JG anymore than I agree with Rush. I don't listen to Rush because he is just too crazy with his presentation, and too opinionated. JG gets too emotional. I am all over the political map with my thoughts, which is confusing to most people because I am hard to catalog in most people's minds:

1. I am conservative when it comes to finance: banks and financial institution must be responsible, and the recent financial crisis which, I believe, is the result of a liberal government lifting the restrictions and controls needed for a stable economy.
2. I am a liberal when it comes to the needed governmental control the essential infrastructure of society: roads, electrical utilities, delivery of needed goods.
3. When it comes to social institutions: I am split. We need to care for the weak and the sick: I have known blind people who were able to function because of the needed government programs. The care of those in need, due to no fault of their own, is expected and demanded of any government.
4. I am conservative on many of the governmental programs for the poor because they tend to keep people poor.
5. I tend to favor programs for businesses because the vast number of people just could not create a new business on their own; it is business that provides the jobs.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

Sorry about the Bible verse. But this discussion area is labeled as not hobby related. So I am free to address it that way. It was a good way to call a person a dog and a pig without really saying so. Sorry, but I just couldn't resist. Yes, I have read the Bible through - several times. Like it or not, knowledge of the Bible is demanded of an educated person in western society. I learned a lot from it, I have also read a lot of other books, written several books and many journal articles, attended a lot of college, been a US Marine, combat injured, advised the legal system and been paid as an expert witness in court cases. I love math (statistics and probability are a specialty), science and history.

I hire advisors when I feel I am short on my own knowledge: and they have told me that I am one of the few people around who constantly tries to add to their personal store of knowledge.

For me: life is neither liberal or conservative. The questions and the answers are never simple and we should always evaluate things from different angles.

The reasons for the Civil War are not simple. Whether or not you like JG, he made some valid points in this discussion. He came at this from a different angle. He does tend to overstate the conservative view point just as Rush does. But then, the liberals tend to overstate their views too. Look at both sides of every question.

One thing about the Civil War, and the reason I jumped into this discussion is that I consider it political propaganda for the government to issue the statement: Slavery was THE reason for the Civil War. It was a reason, and a very valid reason, but it was not the only reason. But it is a simple answer that tells those in our society: Look at this government, it put a end to slavery. Therefore you are can expect all good things to come from this government. Maybe.

The Civil War was much more complicated than that. Slavery should have been ended without the Civil War because the South never was a match for the industrial might of the North. Their only chance would have been a quick victory at the beginning of the war, before emancipation and before the tide turned as the North was able to gather itself up and consolidate public opinion to support their cause.

Everyone should learn about everything they can. For me the two things that I have learned that make me proud are: learning to weld, and learning to paint because I didn't have the chance to learn industrial art or regular art during my early years. Both were something new for me.

I hope this is enough of an answer. I have to get back to work.

JR

[catnipdipper]

Written several books and journal articles?

As a kid we played a game called "I doubt it." Now as a grownup I will just say Bull Shit!

I think you are emailing from an institution or perhaps are one of John Galt, aka Sybil's personalities.

[thorough9]

Originally Posted by JRLawrence

I don't think you want to learn anything new, or to look at other points of view; that is truly sad. I appreciate JohnG because he attempts to think, and learn, about the world as it truly is; because of this his emotional outburst are tolerated. People who want to learn consider knowledge and understanding to be very important, almost holy, and essential to human existence. All of us have different backgrounds and abilities; the key to life is if each of us attempts to increase our personal store of knowledge. You have either totally missed the point of our discussion or are joining the discussion just to harass.

Maybe, just maybe it is more serious with you. Are you so lonely that joining a discussion you don't understand is your only way to get attention. If so, it time to request an appointment with a metal health professional. You need to have an evaluation: are you really mentally deranged, or just conceitedly assertive and dogmatic? I went to the information concerning your ten reviews, and they tell us something: 8 out of 10 reviews are a recommendation not to see the girl again. Wow, 80% of the girls you paid to see gave you a bad time; I wonder why. I think that is some type of record. (Sorry, the second page shows you did a little better with a grand total of 12 no and 5 yes for a total reject rate of 71%; still pretty bad.)

It would be better if you tried to learn something new than to remain in ignorance. You have, however, reminded me of a Bible verse I was taught in my youth; I should have remembered this prior to having any discussion with you.

"Never give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs. Otherwise, they will trample them with their feet and then turn around and attack you."
Matthew 7:6 (International Standard Version)

For the future, you will have no problems with me, because I will block your posts and will no longer respond to you.

JR

In case you didn't get the memo, I don't give a shit what you think - and that's your problem. I am not wowed by your vast inventory of useless facts that you call "knowledge" and you've reacted like little child. If you had said anything knowledgeable or noteworthy or even useful, then the situation might be different. And if I did want to learn anything, I know how to read, I know how to analyze what I've read, and I know how to form my own opinions. You're just another jackass who thinks that your opinion should be respected, not for its validity, but because of who you are. As if I need you to enlighten me because you've got all of the "keys to life" figured out.

As for the rest your "insults", the last time that approach was used, it came from the Powder Room. Examining my reviews(is that the best that you've got) and I'm "mentally deranged" because my opinion differs from yours and I ripped your bullshit technology assertions to pieces? What you're acting like is a scorned female - I must have REALLY gotten under your skin. What a F'n joke...

And to top it off, you quote the Bible. A "dog" and a "pig"? You sound like a little girl trying to use the Bible to say what you're afraid to... just say - F'n Coward. You think that you have pearls - and that's your problem - your pearls are more like used anal beads - they're just as full of shit as you are. "Holy?" There is as much holy about you as there is about the southern slave-holders who went to war and caused the deaths of over 600,000 Americans because they wanted to continue slavery - and none of your could'a, would'a, should'a bullshit is ever gonna change that. You're holy? We're both on this board for the same reason, and that nievete and self-righteousness, on your part, is the reason that you're so upset now. Let me define ignorance for you: Ignorance is believeing that your over-rated, grandiose opinion, 150 years later, carries more validity than the people who actually lived through the ordeal - get the fuck over yourself......

[john_galt]

Well, forget the anti-Semitic T9, he lacks the intellect to have a rational argument about nearly anything. This is obvious from his posts; a collect of raving insults, unprovable claims, and just general nastiness. JR, your "insults" go so far over his brutish mind that he doesn't even know he was insulted. Well, I have made my points that have not been refuted even by the syphilitic ravings of T9 and now it is time to go back to the real world. I post this so the world knows, though I don't think T9 ever will, I am putting T9 into the ignore column. He will go on thinking he has accomplished something like the football player who runs the length of the field into the end zone. He starts his end zone dance only then discovering that he dropped the ball back on the 30 yard line. A fool's fool. So long T9. Auf Wiedersehen.