I'm all up for negotiation

[Kayleehotchick]

LOL....I had a guy want me to give him a discount for having to drive a long way and for gas.

I told him he obviously needs to find a better paying job if he can't afford the gas to go see a hooker.

[MaxiMilyen]

Originally Posted by biglatinmale

Don't get all worked up mm, it's a suggestion not a command.

BLM, I stay worked up....it's what my friends really enjoy about me, ya know?

[ck1942]

Originally Posted by MaxiMilyen

I have a quick true story. I met with a client several times. He was respectful, intelligent, squeaky clean, nice looking, never early, always tipped, and always bought me a little gift. He never came on the board to make false assumptions, less than nice insuations, brag about his conquests, or even flat out insult the ladies. We had several conversations that lead him to understand what it was that was the cause for him and his wife to have become distant over the years. I still get emails from the client who appreciated me sharing what it was. He no longer has a need or desire to hobby and he and his lady are happier than ever.

We are none of us a product on a shelf. We are each human beings providing a service.

yes ... it's an emotional gift as well as physical. -- ElizabethWhispers

Above, among the many reasons I have insisted over the years that the true companions and courtesans in the hobby should be called "therapists."

Sensual, Sexual, Relationship.

Whichever fits.

[bigguyinhouston]

So I have a quick question for the providers. I'm in Houston and would appreciate if you could mail reply as well as post in thread. A provider contacts a member because she is having a slow time. normal rates are $200/hr for pse. Is it reasonable to negotiate a lower rate? I didn't call, and the girl obviously needs money. Appreciate your help.

[guest071618-1]

Originally Posted by MaxiMilyen

I have a quick true story. I met with a client several times. He was respectful, intelligent, squeaky clean, nice looking, never early, always tipped, and always bought me a little gift. He never came on the board to make false assumptions, less than nice insuations, brag about his conquests, or even flat out insult the ladies. We had several conversations that lead him to understand what it was that was the cause for him and his wife to have become distant over the years. I still get emails from the client who appreciated me sharing what it was. He no longer has a need or desire to hobby and he and his lady are happier than ever.

We are none of us a product on a shelf. We are each human beings providing a service.

Maybe he realized fucking his wife was better...
J/K

Anyway,,, I will start to call u Dr.MaxiMilyen... It is better to see her than Shrinks and guarantee 1st time cure...

[boomvang]

Originally Posted by icansmile

What if you turn away a potential client over a few dollars when you have that opportunity to show them WHY you are worth what you say you are? It is your product and you get to dictate its value but it is our money, and we can move past your price point and never meet, or we can ask.

In my commissioned sales days we had a saying "5% of something is a lot more than 10% of nothing.

Originally Posted by MaxiMilyen

Well, maybe most of us have already established our worth as evidenced by every bit of information available to the potential clients. Why would a gentleman haggle over a few dollars? I bet ya a dollar it wasn't the ladies idea to start negotiating her worth any time a gent contacted her. Mowing lawns is a service, albeit a little less personal than the intimate service females provide for the gents. If it wasn't, more gents would be looking for a lawn maintenance fella instead of a lady to spend time with.


It's tacky, uncouth, inappropriate, and simply rude to indicate that what you want from us is exactly what everyone else has to offer. If ya want a cheaper rate from a warm wet hole, rather than an experience with a certain female, you can find it here. Contact the lady who provides the rate you want to pay.

When I was in my professional prime I had lots of things done for me. I could make 10 times the money it cost to have them done in the amount of time it took me to do them. Things have slowed down for me considerable now. I can think of several times recently where I would have gone with the lawn maintenance fella over Isabella Rossellini of 25 years given the choice.

I don’t haggle. By that I mean I don’t initiate the conversation. There have been instances where it was the provider that suggested we get together. When that’s the case is it tacky, uncouth, inappropriate, and simply rude to let her know that her published rates are more than I like to pay?

Should we just say no thank you and not offer any reason? Better yet should we just not acknowledge that she made the comment about getting together? Maybe just shut if off right there and pretend she doesn’t exist. To me that would be extreemly tacky, uncouth, inappropriate, and simply rude. I've never done that, but I have heard of it happening.


Many disagree. but I don’t think “you get what you pay for” always applies in the hobby. Some providers think that just showing up should do the trick. (Pun intended) But a provider with a more reasonable rate and less jaded attitude will fuck you to pieces for $50 - $100 less. Like the old Avis Rent a Car Ads “We’re number 2, but we try harder”

Originally Posted by Kayleehotchick

LOL....I had a guy want me to give him a discount for having to drive a long way and for gas.

I told him he obviously needs to find a better paying job if he can't afford the gas to go see a hooker.

Who would suggest you discount such a class act?

Next "I'm short on rent" phone call I receive I think I'll just tell them they obviously need to find a better paying job. Think it will work better than what I say now "you have to have a better friend than me"?

Reminds me a little of a double I was participaiting in quite a few years ago, I rebuked an upsell tactic. One provider said to the other. "I bet he doesn't have the money" That was the end of that double. Both ladies left with all of their fees, but that was it. I spared them a look at my tax returns, but I may have mentioned the house they were in was paid for and after leaving home at 18 I had made enough to pay my rent every single month. I didn't always make enough to go out or eat really well, but my bills got paid.

Originally Posted by Chung Tran

no argument, but a comeback:

"if I have to dig too deep into my pockets to see you, I'll be digging into my pockets to jack myself off"..

Pains me to say this publicly, but Chung is almost Yoda like in his wisdom at times. I really have to hand it to you Chung Tran. (what pun?)

Originally Posted by bigguyinhouston

So I have a quick question for the providers. I'm in Houston and would appreciate if you could mail reply as well as post in thread. A provider contacts a member because she is having a slow time. normal rates are $200/hr for pse. Is it reasonable to negotiate a lower rate? I didn't call, and the girl obviously needs money. Appreciate your help.

If her normal rate for PSE is $200/hr why the hell is she slow? Tell her to move to Fort Worth. If her normal rates were $350 to $250, I knew she was fun and the antique wall clock would still be here after she left I might ask if she could compromise a little. But at $200 all I would say is "Thank You what time?"

[MaxiMilyen]

Originally Posted by boomvang

In my commissioned sales days we had a saying "5% of something is a lot more than 10% of nothing.

Ya know, I do understand your point, however, I imagine what you offered was not quite the most personal experience as what we provide.

I don’t haggle. By that I mean I don’t initiate the conversation. There have been instances where it was the provider that suggested we get together. When that’s the case is it tacky, uncouth, inappropriate, and simply rude to let her know that her published rates are more than I like to pay?

Easily handled by stating, I've had my eye on you, but unfortunately you are outta price range. However, be careful if ya have reviews posted or give refs for ladies in the same price range, cause she might think at that point, you are telling her a story.

Should we just say no thank you and not offer any reason? Better yet should we just not acknowledge that she made the comment about getting together? Maybe just shut if off right there and pretend she doesn’t exist. To me that would be extreemly tacky, uncouth, inappropriate, and simply rude. I've never done that, but I have heard of it happening.

Folks are rude, doesn't mean we gotta follow suit though, There are lotsa ways to be nice and decline that which we do not want.


Many disagree. but I don’t think “you get what you pay for” always applies in the hobby. Some providers think that just showing up should do the trick. (Pun intended) But a provider with a more reasonable rate and less jaded attitude will fuck you to pieces for $50 - $100 less. Like the old Avis Rent a Car Ads “We’re number 2, but we try harder”

If you're ok with that, then do yo thang!


Who would suggest you discount such a class act?

Next "I'm short on rent" phone call I receive I think I'll just tell them they obviously need to find a better paying job. Think it will work better than what I say now "you have to have a better friend than me"?

Reminds me a little of a double I was participaiting in quite a few years ago, I rebuked an upsell tactic. One provider said to the other. "I bet he doesn't have the money" That was the end of that double. Both ladies left with all of their fees, but that was it. I spared them a look at my tax returns, but I may have mentioned the house they were in was paid for and after leaving home at 18 I had made enough to pay my rent every single month. I didn't always make enough to go out or eat really well, but my bills got paid.



Pains me to say this publicly, but Chung is almost Yoda like in his wisdom at times. I really have to hand it to you Chung Tran. (what pun?)

I'm still on the fence, but paying attention.

If her normal rate for PSE is $200/hr why the hell is she slow? Tell her to move to Fort Worth. If her normal rates were $350 to $250, I knew she was fun and the antique wall clock would still be here after she left I might ask if she could compromise a little. But at $200 all I would say is "Thank You what time?"

Originally Posted by eng

Maybe he realized fucking his wife was better...
J/K

Anyway,,, I will start to call u Dr.MaxiMilyen... It is better to see her than Shrinks and guarantee 1st time cure...

Nah,...you weren't joking. And yes, he did prefer to have sex with his wife....he loved her. Not sure you understood that. Or, maybe ya just have yet to understand love?

Don't be hating cause I'm gifted, hon. I'm no one's doctor, but apparently, I am every man's whore, whether he wishes to phuck me or not. Many of ya sure don't mind putting us in, what you judge is, our place, or attempting to make us feel like stupid lowly whores as often as ya can. It is what it is. But then again, nothing truly is as it seems.

[ElisabethWhispers]

Originally Posted by boomvang

...If her normal rate for PSE is $200/hr why the hell is she slow? Tell her to move to Fort Worth. If her normal rates were $350 to $250, I knew she was fun and the antique wall clock would still be here after she left I might ask if she could compromise a little. But at $200 all I would say is "Thank You what time?"

Yes, that is what you would say. But would you make the appointment and actually show up?

After LOTS of years of experience, I had to write this after your long diatribe of advice to others. MY advice would be to not listen to YOUR advice.

But what do I know?

[C@r@m3lTWIX]

Originally Posted by boomvang

There have been instances where it was the provider that suggested we get together. When that’s the case is it tacky, uncouth, inappropriate, and simply rude to let her know that her published rates are more than I like to pay?

Should we just say no thank you and not offer any reason? Better yet should we just not acknowledge that she made the comment about getting together?

Many disagree. but I don’t think “you get what you pay for” always applies in the hobby. Some providers think that just showing up should do the trick.

I wonder about this idea of negotiation/haggling as related to the buying and selling as discussed in this thread. Fact is, while some providers may know (based on their interaction with some of their clients) or believe they are selling more than "sex", and thus get "insulted" by the idea of having services haggled over, well, some of us dudes see it as just that after having the kinds of experiences described above.....a provider is just selling "sex". Maybe before we came to that thought we did think more of the overall experience, we did believe in the golden pussy and think nothing of the rate as long as we had it, until we ran into one or more of these as edited above. Then, its just "sex", an action or a series of actions. And in that vain "sex" is more than fair to be negotiated; it has been since the dawn of time and always will be.

Doesn't really matter what the price is on either side if you have parameters and boundaries, and are willing to stick to them. There are enough potential surprises in this game....that just adds extra drama to me that can potentially take away from the session.

[MaxiMilyen]

Originally Posted by C@r@m3lTWIX

I wonder about this idea of negotiation/haggling as related to the buying and selling as discussed in this thread. Fact is, while some providers may know (based on their interaction with some of their clients) or believe they are selling more than "sex", and thus get "insulted" by the idea of having services haggled over, well, some of us dudes see it as just that after having the kinds of experiences described above.....a provider is just selling "sex". Maybe before we came to that thought we did think more of the overall experience, we did believe in the golden pussy and think nothing of the rate as long as we had it, until we ran into one or more of these as edited above. Then, its just "sex", an action or a series of actions. And in that vain "sex" is more than fair to be negotiated; it has been since the dawn of time and always will be.

Hate it gents make bad choices, the connection/experience they seek wasn't there, etc. However, just as the gents know they are not all alike, please know, the ladies aren't either. I am not, nor do I offer to provide "just" any one thing, nor am "I" a menu of services, even if I am sexually social. And, even if a lady feels that way about herself, why would anyone endorse that, by being just another insensitive dildo? And no, it's not fair or anyone's right to insult the ladies by assuming because it's been done in the past, it continues to be A-OK. As I stated in another thread, in some countries, it's A-OK for "men" to kill a woman for getting raped. Shouldn't that also be a thing of the past in our civilized world? If we never change our way of considering anything, nothing changes. Right?

Doesn't really matter what the price is on either side if you have parameters and boundaries, and are willing to stick to them. There are enough potential surprises in this game....that just adds extra drama to me that can potentially take away from the session.

Everything matters. The only constant in this hobby is.....

WALDT = We All Like Different Things

No need to be an insensitive individual when ya contact a lady. Isn't that the sure bet you'll never ever, find an "experience" to remember?

[blowmypop23]

Originally Posted by MaxiMilyen

Nah,...you weren't joking. And yes, he did prefer to have sex with his wife....he loved her. Not sure you understood that. Or, maybe ya just have yet to understand love?

Don't be hating cause I'm gifted, hon. I'm no one's doctor, but apparently, I am every man's whore, whether he wishes to phuck me or not. Many of ya sure don't mind putting us in, what you judge is, our place, or attempting to make us feel like stupid lowly whores as often as ya can. It is what it is. But then again, nothing truly is as it seems.

What I find amusing is when you tell guys not to tell you what you think, and then you turn around and tell us what we think.

What this is to you has nothing to do with what it is to us. when I am at home if I get hungry I go make something to eat in the kitchen. If I get horny I have intercourse with my wife and we have a connection. I have a connection with my family and friends. I don't need a connection with someone I am paying to do a service.

If I need the lawn mowed, I call the person who does it. Same for cable, electric etc... They perform a service. If I am hungry and away from the house, I'll go buy something to eat. If I get horny and I'm away from home, I'll pay a lady to perform a service. That's all it is to many of us, a service. I'm not looking for a lot of chit chat and a warm and fuzzy, I just want to bust that nut and get back to work, eat that burger and go back to work etc....

You can call it what ever it is to you, but we are paying for it so all that really matters is what it is to us. I'm sure there are guys out there not in relation ships or in loveless relationships who feel the exact opposite as I do. I understand, again it only matters what it is to them, not me, and definitely not you.

When I pay the painter to come re-do the house I don't need him telling me this or that or etc... I look at their yelp reviews, maybe their website and get all the info I need to make a decision on their service. Same with a provider, I read the reviews to see what is and what isn't on the menu and what the price is and then make a decision.

The worst hobby experiences I've had were with lady's who it's just a business for who are mechanical and want to talk about this or that or lay out game plans or rules etc... I've read your reviews, I've looked at your showcase, there is zero chance I'm going to shove my ass in your face so where is the iop? Some guys like to be told what to do and dominated, (that would seem to be your client base). Some of us all ready have the ball buster at home so we are not looking to pay for more of it.

Lastly, as far as the price and negotiating etc...

It's a service, and it's my money. there are literally thousands of ladies in Dallas offering the same routine. That doesn't mean I don't prefer one I know over one I don't or enjoy someones service more then others but like it was said before "if I have to reach too deep in my pockets, I might as well just yank it" (or call someone else who will say Yes)

It is what it is, I see brand new ladies on hear answering every single iso day after day after day. One even made a post in here about running review specials. I look at her showcase and see her and all her friends rates and they are all new yet they all want $300 and hour and none have more then one review. WTF.. She runs a $250 review special and doesn't understand why she can't get reviews or callers or has to answer every single iso to try and drum up business as does all 3 of her friends.

It's plain out and out insanity. It used to be only hot, banging babes with outstanding reviews were getting 3 bills and staying busy. Now I see plump providers, old providers and new unknown providers asking for it. It's no wonder you have all day to post in every thread....on every subject.....man hating posts....(it's perception, again it doesn't matter even one bit what you think, if the dudes all think you are a man hater then you are a man hatter)

[Mr. Rogers]

If you can't afford it, don't try to buy it. As far as everything else, these are people that we are dealing with. When did it become ok to treat people with anything less than respect. I have worked in a service based industry for over 20 years and it amazes me how badly people are willing to treat others, especially when they don't get their way.

I guarantee that the level of service I receive is much better than the "men" who see these women as anything less than people. I don't care if I'm paying money, it doesn't give me the right to be a dick. Unfortunately, there are people on this board who are disrespectful and think their money gives them leave to mistreat others.

If you don't get it, then why are you wasting money. Go fuck a greased up knot hole and get your nut!

[MaxiMilyen]

Originally Posted by blowmypop23

What I find amusing is when you tell guys not to tell you what you think, and then you turn around and tell us what we think.

Please elaborate......

What this is to you has nothing to do with what it is to us. when I am at home if I get hungry I go make something to eat in the kitchen. If I get horny I have intercourse with my wife and we have a connection. I have a connection with my family and friends. I don't need a connection with someone I am paying to do a service.

then don't connect your penis to her mouth, vagina, or anything else.....cause that's the MOST intimate connection you can have with anyone. If it's not an intimate connection, then please.....tell me what it is. I'm obviously all kinda confused.

If I need the lawn mowed, I call the person who does it. Same for cable, electric etc... They perform a service. If I am hungry and away from the house, I'll go buy something to eat. If I get horny and I'm away from home, I'll pay a lady to perform a service. That's all it is to many of us, a service. I'm not looking for a lot of chit chat and a warm and fuzzy, I just want to bust that nut and get back to work, eat that burger and go back to work etc....

you don't stick your goodies in their little goodies, hon. again, please tell me how it's relevant. I have a love of learning. Teach me.Please.

You can call it what ever it is to you, but we are paying for it so all that really matters is what it is to us. I'm sure there are guys out there not in relation ships or in loveless relationships who feel the exact opposite as I do. I understand, again it only matters what it is to them, not me, and definitely not you.

Everything matters to BOTH parties, can you elaborate why you think it doesn't?

When I pay the painter to come re-do the house I don't need him telling me this or that or etc... I look at their yelp reviews, maybe their website and get all the info I need to make a decision on their service. Same with a provider, I read the reviews to see what is and what isn't on the menu and what the price is and then make a decision.

DO ya dip your penis in the painters paint? Interesting if ya do. He might take that a little personally....

The worst hobby experiences I've had were with lady's who it's just a business for who are mechanical and want to talk about this or that or lay out game plans or rules etc... I've read your reviews, I've looked at your showcase, there is zero chance I'm going to shove my ass in your face so where is the iop? Some guys like to be told what to do and dominated, (that would seem to be your client base). Some of us all ready have the ball buster at home so we are not looking to pay for more of it.

Ya say it's not a connection and not personal, but are upset if they are mechanical. This is a joke, right? LOL

Lastly, as far as the price and negotiating etc...

It's a service, and it's my money. there are literally thousands of ladies in Dallas offering the same routine. That doesn't mean I don't prefer one I know over one I don't or enjoy someones service more then others but like it was said before "if I have to reach too deep in my pockets, I might as well just yank it" (or call someone else who will say Yes)

Hey, it's yo Thang, do what ya gotta do to get yours. Guess what? I'm gonna do that too. Shocking, ain't I? Very manhater of me to say those kinda things.

It is what it is, I see brand new ladies on hear answering every single iso day after day after day. One even made a post in here about running review specials. I look at her showcase and see her and all her friends rates and they are all new yet they all want $300 and hour and none have more then one review. WTF.. She runs a $250 review special and doesn't understand why she can't get reviews or callers or has to answer every single iso to try and drum up business as does all 3 of her friends.

I don't understand your point. What's it to ya what her rate is. It ain't personal anyway, right?

It's plain out and out insanity. It used to be only hot, banging babes with outstanding reviews were getting 3 bills and staying busy. Now I see plump providers, old providers and new unknown providers asking for it. It's no wonder you have all day to post in every thread....on every subject.....man hating posts....(it's perception, again it doesn't matter even one bit what you think, if the dudes all think you are a man hater then you are a man hatter)

Cost of living go up for you, ever? Do ya think all ladies gotta do it the way men insist they should so you can get cheap banging babes? really? Feeling slighted? Hobby's cost money, hon. This right here.....it's an expensive hobby and the ladies know it. You ain't entitled to jack diddly, and that's a fact, jack. I wish every man here could get laid by a different babe every day, but it's not gonna happen for most. Fit throwing and whatnot ain't really gonna work. But ya hang out and act all indignant, tell us it ain't personal, get pissed because ya got a robot and can't afford cheap banging babes..... Sorry dude.....I don't get it, or hey, maybe you don't.

Jealous I got time on my hands to address things from a ladies point of view? Tell ya what, provide what I do, put up with a bunch of women hating men constantly trying to stick their nose in our biz, drive down the rates, so they can screw more women a week for less, argue against staying safe and all kinda other things the ladies gotta put up with, and maybe someday, you too can make a decent wage. What someone thinks or perceives actually does matter. Especially if it's an erroneous perception and those who can't or don't know how to think for themselves, simply fall in line like little sheep.

Happens all the time:

MW:, these women suck
MWsheep: gee I guess they must suck, cause my hero hobbyist guy I never met but admire said so.....

LOL Jr High, darlin'. Ya know?

EDIT: Tell ya what. I certainly get lots more offers from actual MEN, when they see me setting off all you petty little fellas' triggers, than I get when I'm a flirty little actin' "Yes" girl. I get more....ummmm....folks like you when I do that. It is what it is. Actual Men, can see what time of day it is, cause they are males too, however, they know not to poo where they eat. Otherwise, they gotta make themselves a new handle, or no woman here would see some of them and they know it. And that my friend, is a truth.

EDIT2: Thanks for checking me out, up one side and down the other. You are now an official MaxiMilyen expert! Me? I saw your response, don't have a clue, and don't need to look anywhere to know you are not in my client base. Doesn't matter. I'm just telling you the truth and for some reason, maybe you been a liar so long, I dunno, but it seems to really get ya wired up for a lady to tell some hard cold facts and truth. Makes her a manhater even? Is that right? I'm understanding at least that part of what you are trying to say, I think.

[blowmypop23]

[QUOTE=Mr. Rogers;1057056526]If you can't afford it, don't try to buy it. As far as everything else, these are people that we are dealing with. When did it become ok to treat people with anything less than respect. I have worked in a service based industry for over 20 years and it amazes me how badly people are willing to treat others, especially when they don't get their way.

I guarantee that the level of service I receive is much better than the "men" who see these women as anything less than people. I don't care if I'm paying money, it doesn't give me the right to be a dick. Unfortunately, there are people on this board who are disrespectful and think their money gives them leave to mistreat others.



+1

[blowmypop23]

Originally Posted by MaxiMilyen

Cost of living go up for you, ever? Do ya think all ladies gotta do it the way men insist they should so you can get cheap banging babes? really? Feeling slighted? Hobby's cost money, hon. This right here.....it's an expensive hobby and the ladies know it. You ain't entitled to jack diddly, and that's a fact, jack. I wish every man here could get laid by a different babe every day, but it's not gonna happen for most. Fit throwing and whatnot ain't really gonna work. But ya hang out and act all indignant, tell us it ain't personal, get pissed because ya got a robot and can't afford cheap banging babes..... Sorry dude.....I don't get it, or hey, maybe you don't.

Jealous I got time on my hands to address things from a ladies point of view? Tell ya what, provide what I do, put up with a bunch of women hating men constantly trying to stick their nose in our biz, drive down the rates, so they can screw more women a week for less, argue against staying safe and all kinda other things the ladies gotta put up with, and maybe someday, you too can make a decent wage. What someone thinks or perceives actually does matter. Especially if it's an erroneous perception and those who can't or don't know how to think for themselves, simply fall in line like little sheep.

Happens all the time:

MW:, these women suck
MWsheep: gee I guess they must suck, cause my hero hobbyist guy I never met but admire said so.....

LOL Jr High, darlin'. Ya know?

EDIT: Tell ya what. I certainly get lots more offers from actual MEN, when they see me setting off all you petty little fellas' triggers, than I get when I'm a flirty little actin' "Yes" girl. I get more....ummmm....folks like you when I do that. It is what it is. Actual Men, can see what time of day it is, cause they are males too, however, they know not to poo where they eat. Otherwise, they gotta make themselves a new handle, or no woman here would see some of them and they know it. And that my friend, is a truth.

I don't understand of word of your rambling and what it has to do with anything I posted.

I feel like I need a nap after trying to link what you posted to what I posted. It's my penis, what I do with it and what that means to me or anyone else you don't have a clue about. My mouth, my penis, my ass, these are all body parts that have their own purpose. Do you not get that some of us don't need a connection with our penis or it isn't that personal to us. I don't fall in love every time I nut, I just take a nap or get something to eat (hahahaha) I have a wife whom I love that I have that connection with. I have family and friends who I love that I have a connection with. You and these ladies I have to pay to be with, that makes it a service, not a connection.

That doesn't mean I don't like or prefer to see some over others but it is what it is.

As far as the mechanical goes, that wasn't the point. The point was the lady's that have to be so dominant that even though they state everything in their showcase feel the need to state again at beginning of session. It's a total IOP killer. So yes, of course I want some IOP if that's what I'm looking for that day. Lately it's just been bng's or hh quick hits I've been interested in and in those cases I don't care about iop, just do the deed so I can get back to what I was doing before this hard on came about.