Another health care thread.

[discreetgent]

Interesting read; with much of the provisions not kicking in for a while the court cases will hopefully be finished by then.

[pjorourke]

Yes there is a very good chance this PoS will be repealed before the worst of it becomes effective.

BTW, from a blog I follow -- well stated:

With Stupak's collapse, passage of the Democrats' government medicine bill is assured. This is a dark day in American history; one of the darkest. But there are many reasons for optimism. Here are a few:
* The health care battle is just beginning. Next, the Senate will try to enact the House's "fixes" to the original Senate bill. Some Senators say that won't happen. If not, then President Obama has the option of signing the original Senate bill--now passed by the House--Cornhusker Kickback and all. I assume he would do that, but the resulting blowback from House Democrats, not to mention the American people, would be something to behold.
* The health care bill's taxes will go into effect promptly, but its substantive provisions are, for the most part, deferred for four years. This means that we have plenty of time to repeal the legislation. Sure, it will take a new Congress and new President. But repealing this disaster of a bill will by a rallying cry for the American people for years to come. Moreover, even if the Republicans only take over the House in November, and not the Senate, won't it be possible to throw roadblocks in the way of the bill's implementation? Won't budget appropriations be necessary to sustain the various federal tentacles the bill seeks to establish? What will happen if the House simply refuses to fund them?
* I've never been prouder to be a Republican. The party's Congressional leaders have fought this battle to the end on behalf of the American people--with intelligence, toughness, persistence and good humor. The contrast between the parties has never been starker than in today's debate. If any intelligent Democrats were watching--there must be some left--they had to be embarrassed for their party.
* Paul Ryan has emerged as one of the conservative movement's strongest spokesmen. In the years to come, I think we will hear the words "I'm a Paul Ryan Republican" with increasing frequency.
* The health care debate has energized the conservative movement and awoken the sleeping giant, that is, the American people. The Democrats misinterpreted their electoral victories in 2006 and 2008 as a mandate for socialism. Now a majority of voters are intent on disabusing them of that misapprehension. Just about all of the political energy today is on the right--a remarkable fact, only sixteen months after the Democrats' high-water mark in November 2008.
* Barack Obama has used his political capital--pretty much all of it--on unpopular legislation that will continue to rile the voters for years to come. As a result, Obama is a remarkably unpopular second-year President. And he hasn't even experienced any bad luck yet. It is hard to see how he will be able to regain his footing.
So, be of good cheer. To paraphrase a great American, we have not yet begun to fight.

[dearhunter]

Welcome to "change".

I "hope" I can afford it.

[discreetgent]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

Yes there is a very good chance this PoS will be repealed before the worst of it becomes effective.

IMHO that is wishful thinking. Tinkering with it, probable; repeal very unlikely.

Moreover, even if the Republicans only take over the House in November, and not the Senate, won't it be possible to throw roadblocks in the way of the bill's implementation? Won't budget appropriations be necessary to sustain the various federal tentacles the bill seeks to establish? What will happen if the House simply refuses to fund them?

That could be interesting. Might make the Gingrich-Clinton budget battle in 1995 look positively Lilliputian

I've never been prouder to be a Republican. The party's Congressional leaders have fought this battle to the end on behalf of the American people--with intelligence, toughness, persistence and good humor. The contrast between the parties has never been starker than in today's debate. If any intelligent Democrats were watching--there must be some left--they had to be embarrassed for their party.

If that were all there was to it I might give that statement real credence. The Republican's have unabashedly stated that their strategy is to oppose pretty much anything Obama wants to do. Making the claim that united opposition on this is principled is self-serving to the extreme. After months of negotiations last spring and summer in the Senate Finance Committee, Senator Grassley (R. of Iowa) made it clear that he wouldn't vote for a bill he had negotiated lol

The health care debate has energized the conservative movement and awoken the sleeping giant, that is, the American people.

Agreed on energizing the conservative movement; awoken the American people, we'll have a better idea in November.

Barack Obama has used his political capital--pretty much all of it--on unpopular legislation that will continue to rile the voters for years to come. As a result, Obama is a remarkably unpopular second-year President. And he hasn't even experienced any bad luck yet. It is hard to see how he will be able to regain his footing.

This is will be fascinating to watch. Does getting this measure through strengthen Obama or has it in effect used up his political capital.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by discreetgent

IMHO that is wishful thinking. Tinkering with it, probable; repeal very unlikely.

Maybe, but ask Dan Rostenkowski

That could be interesting. Might make the Gingrich-Clinton budget battle in 1995 look positively Lilliputian

Count on it.

If that were all there was to it I might give that statement real credence. The Republican's have unabashedly stated that their strategy is to oppose pretty much anything Obama wants to do. Making the claim that united opposition on this is principled is self-serving to the extreme. After months of negotiations last spring and summer in the Senate Finance Committee, Senator Grassley (R. of Iowa) made it clear that he wouldn't vote for a bill he had negotiated lol

This is not about R's vs. D's. R's are irrelevant and in many ways as bad as the D's. It is all about "Limited Government". We will take allies where we find them.

Agreed on energizing the conservative movement; awoken the American people, we'll have a better idea in November.

Agreed.

This is will be fascinating to watch. Does getting this measure through strengthen Obama or has it in effect used up his political capital.

I think the boy wonder has shot his wad.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by discreetgent

The Republican's have unabashedly stated that their strategy is to oppose pretty much anything Obama wants to do. Making the claim that united opposition on this is principled is self-serving to the extreme. After months of negotiations last spring and summer in the Senate Finance Committee, Senator Grassley (R. of Iowa) made it clear that he wouldn't vote for a bill he had negotiated lol




.

Any Repub that is pounding their chest talking about fighting the good fight "for the people" is so full of $hit...This was the most partisan fight ever...& to those that don't get off on playing party politics the whole thing was disgusting.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

Any Repub that is pounding their chest talking about fighting the good fight "for the people" is so full of $hit...This was the most partisan fight ever...& to those that don't get off on playing party politics the whole thing was disgusting.

Said I was out of this thread, but couldn't resist responding to this post.

This is the most partisan fight ever...I agree. Both sides state they are only doing the will of the people. But one thing I am pretty sure of...the people see the unabashed partisanship of the fight. And I'm pretty sure they will resent it. Despite my POV on this issue, I think the people recognize this fight for its pure partisan nature.

[discreetgent]

The final piece was the executive order Obama agreed to sign w.r.t abortion. Amazing to see the organizations that have come out against the agreement:

Planned Parenthood
National Right-to-Life
NOW
The Susan B. Anthony stripping Stupak of an award it was planning on giving him, deeming the agreement Pro-Life Betrayal
The Center for Reproductive Rights

Both the left and the right are against it which must mean it really didn't change much of anything lol

[pjorourke]

Executive Orders don't mean squat. they can be changed by this president or another one. They have no force of law. Stupak is catching shit because he sold out for nothing. At least Nelson got the Cornhusker Kickback. Stupak just got fucked in the ass by Nancy with a big thick dildo. Anyone up for a side bet as to whether or not he is defeated in November?

[discreetgent]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

Executive Orders don't mean squat. they can be changed by this president or another one.

Indeed; there is the "gag order" on discussing abortion that has already changed 3 times. Bush I put it in place; Clinton rescinded it; Bush II put it back in place; Obama rescinded it.

I think that Stupak and the 6 or so congressman left of the 12 who pushed the language in the House bill in the Fall were looking for a way, any way to get out of the corner they backed themselves into. Without them the bill fails and that would have been a disaster for the Democrats (we shall see if passing the bill is an electoral a disaster in a few months). However, they had made so many comments on the Senate version that not getting something was also not acceptable.

[pjorourke]

Agreed. The concept of a moderate Democrat is a myth. They are all Pelosistas.

[discreetgent]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

The concept of a moderate Democrat is a myth.

The same could be said of a moderate Republican lol

[charlestudor2005]

No such thing as a moderate Republican either. Since the Republicans are tossing around the "socialist" epithet, it's only fair to say all the Republicans are Nazis. Looks like PJ is lined up right there. Here's a sign for you:

This is a vile personal attack and if another occurs, there will be points or worse. JB

[Ansley]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

No such thing as a moderate Republican either. Since the Republicans are tossing around the "socialist" epithet, it's only fair to say all the Republicans are Nazis. Looks like PJ is lined up right there. Here's a sign for you:

Posting a Swastika and referring to PJ as a Nazi is just wrong.

[discreetgent]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

No such thing as a moderate Republican either. Since the Republicans are tossing around the "socialist" epithet, it's only fair to say all the Republicans are Nazis. Looks like PJ is lined up right there. Here's a sign for you:

Woaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh there. First off there is a difference between socialists and Nazis. Second, comparing anyone or anything to the horrors that the Nazis inflicted is mind blowing. The most PJ and I agree on is that the avatars of ladies should show boobs but calling him (or any group in general) a Nazi is beyond the acceptable rhetoric.