Guns

[GoForWillard]

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
******** ---Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by GoForWillard

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.
******** ---Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).

I think the passage above is written with the assumption that the people and the government are close to equally armed. Do you think that with pistols and rifles we are indeed armed in the context of modern warfare?

My opinion is that we are already disarmed and don't want to believe it so we make a case that these firearms we hold so dear will somehow save us from tyranny and assymetric warfare and allow us to overthrow the government if necessary. But in reality, its a lot like bringing a knife to a gunfight. The knife bearer is at a severe disadvantage and is essentially unarmed.

[GoForWillard]

300 million plus firearms in circulation. Guns in over 50% of the households. Do the math, that's over 100 million people with guns. Even if you take a percentage of this number, you have a force greater than ALL of our standing military.

I have this debate with my father. He also thinks that the military would easily dispense an "uprising". They have the tanks. They have the airpower. They have more bullets. Two points: 1. A group would not simply line up, stand in public, and wait for the tanks, apaches, etc. to aniliate them. This would be gorilla warfare at it's best. The military would not know where to "fight" OR whom to "fight". 2. Don't think for a minute that the military would stay intact to a point that it could even function. Even if a small percentage of the military "defected" it more than evens the odds. I have friends in SWAT Units that feel this way also. They can't be the only ones. Again, simple law of averages.

I'm sorry for the people that stick their heads in the sand. I'm sorry for the "urbanites" that literally can't see the forest for the trees. Get out every once and a while. Go see why you're still a minority. My SWAT buddies talk about the exodus out of urban areas "if" the day comes. They know things that we don't. They see things that we can't. They talk about things that we can't even imagine. It scares me the things that I have heard. But, if it makes you sleep better, keep your head in the sand. I really don't care.

I grew up in a very rural part of Texas. We didn't call 911. We couldn't, it wouldn't matter, they couldn't get there in time. You called the JP (Justice of the Peace) to sort out the mess. This is my exodus plan. Get out of the urban areas. Where are you gonna go? What are you gonna do? I pray it never happens. I like my life. I like my freedoms. But, I have a plan. Just like you would plan a vacation or what your cooking for dinner. Is it paranoid, maybe. But, it's a plan. What if it's not this asmetric warfare. What if it's the global economy collapsing. What are you gonna do? What if China calls in their debts with their Million Man Army? What you gonna do? Even with your head in the sand, your ASS is straight up and an easy target. What you gonna do?

I sincerely hope that the day never comes. I hope that we can find reasonable solutions to the many societal problems in this country and planet that face us and our offspring. Many have faught and died just so that we can have this discussion.

But, make no mistake, there are many layers that will protect the freedoms and liberties that we all enjoy. You see, we are a rebellious populous. We like to beat our chests in defiance. Look at our history. We like a good fight.

This board is fickle and I now different opinions will come at this post. Not my problem. You have a right to feel that way. Debate is healthy. Just don't come to me when the "Zombies Attack".

[iplaypoker]

Originally Posted by GoForWillard

300 million plus firearms in circulation. Guns in over 50% of the households. Do the math, that's over 100 million people with guns. Even if you take a percentage of this number, you have a force greater than ALL of our standing military.

I have this debate with my father. He also thinks that the military would easily dispense an "uprising". They have the tanks. They have the airpower. They have more bullets. Two points: 1. A group would not simply line up, stand in public, and wait for the tanks, apaches, etc. to aniliate them. This would be gorilla warfare at it's best. The military would not know where to "fight" OR whom to "fight". 2. Don't think for a minute that the military would stay intact to a point that it could even function. Even if a small percentage of the military "defected" it more than evens the odds. I have friends in SWAT Units that feel this way also. They can't be the only ones. Again, simple law of averages.

I'm sorry for the people that stick their heads in the sand. I'm sorry for the "urbanites" that literally can't see the forest for the trees. Get out every once and a while. Go see why you're still a minority. My SWAT buddies talk about the exodus out of urban areas "if" the day comes. They know things that we don't. They see things that we can't. They talk about things that we can't even imagine. It scares me the things that I have heard. But, if it makes you sleep better, keep your head in the sand. I really don't care.

I grew up in a very rural part of Texas. We didn't call 911. We couldn't, it wouldn't matter, they couldn't get there in time. You called the JP (Justice of the Peace) to sort out the mess. This is my exodus plan. Get out of the urban areas. Where are you gonna go? What are you gonna do? I pray it never happens. I like my life. I like my freedoms. But, I have a plan. Just like you would plan a vacation or what your cooking for dinner. Is it paranoid, maybe. But, it's a plan. What if it's not this asmetric warfare. What if it's the global economy collapsing. What are you gonna do? What if China calls in their debts with their Million Man Army? What you gonna do? Even with your head in the sand, your ASS is straight up and an easy target. What you gonna do?

I sincerely hope that the day never comes. I hope that we can find reasonable solutions to the many societal problems in this country and planet that face us and our offspring. Many have faught and died just so that we can have this discussion.

But, make no mistake, there are many layers that will protect the freedoms and liberties that we all enjoy. You see, we are a rebellious populous. We like to beat our chests in defiance. Look at our history. We like a good fight.

This board is fickle and I now different opinions will come at this post. Not my problem. You have a right to feel that way. Debate is healthy. Just don't come to me when the "Zombies Attack".

I think you should listen to your father, it sounds like he knows what he is talking about. Modern technology is so disproportionately more advanced than a firearm that the second amendment really doesn't have context in this day in age. The founding fathers couldn't even imagine the technology necessary to make a computer, much less a mobile computer embedded into the nose of a cruise missile or drone aircraft navigation system LITERALLY performing ***10 billion operations per second***, on thousands of lines of code, coordinating gyroscopic feedback with wireless GPS feed simultaneously to autonomously navigate terrain and find it's mark with a margin of error smaller than a house? Oh and did I mention for that thing called "GPS" to exist there is a network of satellites orbiting planet earth and are capable of triangulating any position on the surface of this planet within a smaller margin of error?

The context is completely different, and therefore are the conclusions..

Look don't get me wrong, I like my firearms just as much as the next Texan, I grew up around them, and my father being an avid hunter and from a long line of ex-military it only came naturally. I still hunt when I have time to.

If the government decides that it wants to impose it's will on the people, and the military supports the government, you have no fucking chance. Haven't you been paying attention with world events? How did we deal with Iraq, and how is the people of Afghanistan faring against our military? It would be even worse if it's on our own soil, less of a need to mobilize. They'd simply launch a bunch of drones to monitor the area and to suppress any uprising or resistance.

p.s. faught isn't a word.

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by GoForWillard

300 million plus firearms in circulation. Guns in over 50% of the households. Do the math, that's over 100 million people with guns. Even if you take a percentage of this number, you have a force greater than ALL of our standing military.

I have this debate with my father. He also thinks that the military would easily dispense an "uprising". They have the tanks. They have the airpower. They have more bullets. Two points: 1. A group would not simply line up, stand in public, and wait for the tanks, apaches, etc. to aniliate them. This would be gorilla warfare at it's best. The military would not know where to "fight" OR whom to "fight". 2. Don't think for a minute that the military would stay intact to a point that it could even function. Even if a small percentage of the military "defected" it more than evens the odds. I have friends in SWAT Units that feel this way also. They can't be the only ones. Again, simple law of averages.

I'm sorry for the people that stick their heads in the sand. I'm sorry for the "urbanites" that literally can't see the forest for the trees. Get out every once and a while. Go see why you're still a minority. My SWAT buddies talk about the exodus out of urban areas "if" the day comes. They know things that we don't. They see things that we can't. They talk about things that we can't even imagine. It scares me the things that I have heard. But, if it makes you sleep better, keep your head in the sand. I really don't care.

I grew up in a very rural part of Texas. We didn't call 911. We couldn't, it wouldn't matter, they couldn't get there in time. You called the JP (Justice of the Peace) to sort out the mess. This is my exodus plan. Get out of the urban areas. Where are you gonna go? What are you gonna do? I pray it never happens. I like my life. I like my freedoms. But, I have a plan. Just like you would plan a vacation or what your cooking for dinner. Is it paranoid, maybe. But, it's a plan. What if it's not this asmetric warfare. What if it's the global economy collapsing. What are you gonna do? What if China calls in their debts with their Million Man Army? What you gonna do? Even with your head in the sand, your ASS is straight up and an easy target. What you gonna do?

I sincerely hope that the day never comes. I hope that we can find reasonable solutions to the many societal problems in this country and planet that face us and our offspring. Many have faught and died just so that we can have this discussion.

But, make no mistake, there are many layers that will protect the freedoms and liberties that we all enjoy. You see, we are a rebellious populous. We like to beat our chests in defiance. Look at our history. We like a good fight.

This board is fickle and I now different opinions will come at this post. Not my problem. You have a right to feel that way. Debate is healthy. Just don't come to me when the "Zombies Attack".

That reminds of the "mother of all wars" rhetoric that was spewed just before Iraq got their ass kicked the first time. I appreciate your opinion and agree that if you feel better with your head in the sand with the belief your sufficiently armed then you should continue to do so.

[Carl]

All I know is that rag-tag bunch of high school kids called the Wolverines brought an invading army to their knees twice. Once with Patrick Swayze and once with Thor. If they can do it, so can we. I rest my case.

[Guest010619]

History has shown that a declining goverment will impose restrictions and remove freedoms while a declining society will fight for more freedoms and seek normalcy. My bet is that the U.S. citizenry will more strongly embrace the constitution while the goverment will seek to restrict it.

[LordBeaverbrook]

Originally Posted by ugotme10

History has shown that a declining goverment will impose restrictions and remove freedoms while a declining society will fight for more freedoms and seek normalcy. My bet is that the U.S. citizenry will more strongly embrace the constitution while the government will seek to restrict it.

Yeah, probably pretty damn close. Remember, the military is an all volunteer military and takes their oath to the Constitution and are barred or severely limited in their ability to operate on US soil by the Isurrection and Posse Comitatus Acts. If the President or people in the Administration tried to use the Army in an unconstitutional way or even possibly in a constitutional way that they didn't agree with it is likely (similar to Egypt) that they would not comply. Military type force in the service of law enforcement and disaster recovery is usually reserved for the national guard and state guard under governors control and since the Civil War regular US military have rarely operated or been used on US soil (some instances of support for border guards and the 1992 LA riots).

IMHO it is remotely possible, but highly unlikely that a President of either party would even attempt to use the US Military to disarm citizens on US soil anytime in my lifetime so I just do not worry too much about it. For my uses if I were ever to have to fight in a revolution, I would not want to get close enough to regular military if at all possible and would prefer to snipe with a 30-06 or .308 to make whatever illegal action was being attempted not worth it to those ordering it or perpetrating it. For those actions a bolt action rifle and revolver would be enough and I wouldn't need an "assault weapon" or even my semi-auto 9mm pistol. I honestly think it would be suicide to go up against regular military who have real assault rifles (selective fire fully auto) and machine guns not to mention tanks, artillery, drones, APCs etc..... If I really want a 30 or 100 round clip or drum or an assault weapon I'll get an FFL and own a machine gun too, but I certainly wouldn't try to fight regular army or even national guard (not that I think I ever would anyway) with those weapons. I would pick and choose my battles if I had to like the Revolutionaries in 1776 did with their long rifles from behind trees and such. That is why I personally don't sweat gun safety legislation. If it can lower the murder/suicide rate by half over 10 years it is probably worth doing, again IMHO.

I honestly think my fellow 319,999,999 or so citizen's right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness (without the risk of getting shot everywhere or arming everyone) mostly trumps my right to own any firearm I want to just because it is cool or I'm paranoid. But, hey, that is just my and about 3 of 4 American's (as long as they can protect their home, hunt and target shoot) opinions, YMMV.

[rioseco]

We dont have a gun problem in this country,we do have a people problem.
When a drunk is stopped for DWI, we have a people problem not a car problem.
When some one is sexually assaulted we again have a people problem.
When a bank is robbed,we have a people problem.
When the government takes away any liberty whatsoever, then we have a government problem.

[Little Monster]

[Mike Vronsky]

Hmmmm. Somehow its working in Syria.

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

I find it humorous when one uses the tired old argument that pistols can actually be used to successfully defend against tyranny. Its almost as if its actually believed. Of course some people want it to be true but they know pistols and such offer next to no protection against the tyranny of a government armed by today's standards.

[governmentguru]

All I know is everytime some loser, crazy or other low-life commits a crime with a firearm, they want to take the guns from the people that didn't do it. Makes sense to me...

[Carl]

Originally Posted by dante0322

Hmmmm. Somehow its working in Syria.

Pistols bringing down Assad and the Ba'ath Party? Have you not watched the news for the last year? The rebels were getting their asses handed to them until they started to get their hands on some heavy weapons.

[Mike Vronsky]

@Carl - thanks for unknowingly making my point. Until they were able to obtain heavy weapons - they were using the weapons they had at hand. During the time they have obtained better weapons - such as tanks by capturing them or by some defectors in the military turning them over.

It seems that you most likely have NOT served in the military and if so, you probably held a desk job.

Originally Posted by Carl

Pistols bringing down Assad and the Ba'ath Party? Have you not watched the news for the last year? The rebels were getting their asses handed to them until they started to get their hands on some heavy weapons.

[iplaypoker]

Syria's military != our military (or any significantly advanced country's military for that matter, but we are the top)

It seems like a lot of people posting in this thread are unaware of current technology and its capabilities.