Is the truth ever Putin propaganda?

[HedonistForever]

https://jonathanturley.org/2022/03/2...omment-page-1/

Zelenskyy Bans Opposition Parties in Ukraine in Blow to Free Speech



Many of us strongly support the fight of Ukraine against the Russian invasion and have commended Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy for the heroic leadership that he has shown in the face of this unprovoked and savage attack. Yet, that support should not shield the country or Zelenskyy from criticism whether it involves filming POWs or cracking down on free speech. The latter concern has arisen after Zelenskyy banned Ukraine’s main opposition party and ten other parties. It is hard to criticize the actions of a nation facing annihilation at the hands of a tyrant. However, Putin is carrying out precisely this type of anti-free speech, counter-democratic crackdown in Russia. Ukraine has the moral high ground in this struggle and should not surrender that ground through its own acts of political censorship and suppression.

According to news reports, the decree bans For Life, Left Opposition, Progressive Socialist Party of Ukraine, Socialist Party of Ukraine, Socialists, Union of Left Forces, Party of Shariy, Opposition Bloc, Ours, State, and Volodymyr Saldo Bloc. All are suspended for at least “the period of the martial law.” This includes the the second most popular political party in Ukraine after Zelensky’s own Servant of the People party in the last election.

Zelenskyy is quoted as saying that “the activities of those politicians aimed at division or collusion will not succeed, but will receive a harsh response.”

Free speech is often attacked for spreading “division or collusion” with one’s enemies. It can take a huge amount of faith in free speech to overcome such impulses, particularly in wartime. However, this is a right that is essential to the guarantee of other rights from free association to the free press. It is the right that defines a nation.

Ukraine has had a turbulent history with democracy. The presidential election of 2004 pushed the country close to civil war. Putin-backed Viktor Yanokovych claimed victory in an extremely close election with claims of voter fraud on both sides. There was an alleged poisoning of his opponent (Yushchenko) by security forces and widespread irregularities. With the “Orange Revolution” protests, a new election was demanded and Yushchenko prevailed.

The country has struggled with free speech guarantees. Political opponents like Viktor Medvedchuk were put under house arrest by Zelenskyy (he later escaped). Zelenskyy also previously banned opposing television channels.

I recognize that it must be infuriating to watch parties expressly or tacitly support an invading power. Yet, that is precisely what should distinguish Ukraine from Russia at this historic moment. Putin supporters will, of course, miss that distinction. They will use their freedoms to seek to deny the freedoms of their fellow citizens. However, they should not be the measure of Ukraine. Free speech and other rights should be the measure.

Ukraine is not the first country to strike out at dissenters in wartime. This country has had its own checkered history in arresting those who opposed our wars. We were wrong then and Zelenskyy is wrong now.



Guess what Professor Turly is being called today on the Left and Right, the “war hawks” as some would label them. “He is pushing Putin propaganda”! Yep, the latest line of attack in the“shut them down before they speak”, country we are becoming.

Assuming all that Turley said is true and it can easily be checked by other media, is the “truth” ever propaganda if it is the truth? No, of course not, the truth is never propaganda, it is the exact opposite of propaganda.

Tonight, Tucker Carlson mentioned Turley’s letter and he checked into it and repeated the same thing. This of course made the chorus of “he’s shilling for Putin” even louder.

But what if it is simply the truth? Can you not say the truth if it doesn’t represent the narrative you are pushing, that one of the reasons we support Zelinski, is because he represents democracy so we must help him? Hell, we should help his country because his countries people are being slaughter by a psychopathic madman that has to be stopped some how preferably before WE try to do it should he strike a NATO country..

So, is saying that, helping Putin in his propaganda war, like Americans saying “do we really want to go to war with Russia”, as being un-patriotic if it “seemingly” helps Putin? Are we to suspend free speech to support one side over the other in a war that doesn’t touch us? We support the side that is being brutalized even if their President called out for his Churchill like oratory and bravery, is dis-mantling Democracy in Ukraine

Everybody raising these questions, prefaces their questions/ statements, by telling us they have all the sympathy in the world for the Ukrainian people and we’ll do anything to help but what we will not do, is suppress our own free speech, at least not yet but they are working on it. Taking Carlson off the air would make us no better than Putin and believe when I tell you that "these people" have Carlson as #1 on their list to silence for merely speaking the truth or if the "truth" isn't known, to dare question what that truth is.

Going down this road of calling each other un-patriot, racist, isn’t going to have an ending, any of us want to see.

[Precious_b]

Can't really see them holding elections at the moment

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by Precious_b

Can't really see them holding elections at the moment

It isn't about elections, it is about free speech which we normally allow in a Democracy. Having one TV channel, ain't democracy in my book and I say that as someone who supports what we are doing "so far", for the people, not for the Zelinski government and the fact that some people can't understand that, is troubling.

[Jackie S]

Ukraine is a Country that is only a little over 30 years old. They are trying to survive.

Look at the United States record through it’s 250 year history. Abe Lincoln pretty much suspended the Constitution during our civil war. Roosevelt ordered the encampment of hundreds of thousand of Americans of Japanese’s decent. During WW-2. Our own Presidents from Kennedy through Nixon lied to us about Vietnam, saying we were “winning”. And in recent times, our “Bureaucracy” concocted an out right lie and propagated it for 4 years to undermine an elected President. They did this with total cooperation from our so called “free press”.

Democracy is fragile. One of the most important tenants of a Democracy, the freedom of speech, is even more fragile.

The real truth will come out if the Ukrainians manage to expell the Russians. Will it remain what at the moment is a Dictatorship, or become a true Republic with democratic principles.

[Salty Again]

Originally Posted by Precious_b

Can't really see them holding elections at the moment

... Kinda agree with Preece here. Can't quite see
people walking to the polls with bombs going off
and what-not.

Hmmmm... Blimey! ... It's midnite - do YOU know
where Joe Biden is? ...

If Bill Clinton was still on - he'd surely be out
there punting-about for lovvys.

### Salty

[WTF]

Originally Posted by HedonistForever

[[/FONT][/SIZE]
Going down this road of calling each other un-patriot, racist, isn’t going to have an ending, any of us want to see.[/COLOR][/B]

But that is how it has always been for the so called right....except when they are the co called "doves". They then start talking about how ridiculous labeling people unpatriotic is.

[Precious_b]

All is fair in love and war?

Can thank the good old USofA for racheting (sp)up the fake news bit and putins old job in using it to his advantage with dancing bear.

I can feel for the people there if they don't know who to trust. The some of the old Common Wealth countries that got their independence were known to trust their oppressors BBC for news of what was happening. Idk who the Ukrainians can trust. I've been a fan of the foreign agent Media Zona.

[bambino]

https://t.me/BoldSpearElmerFudd/67891

[texassapper]

Lets count the war propaganda stories that I've seen debunked already...

Miss "airsoft rifle" Ukraine taking up arms.
Russian Mobile crematories to hide the body count.
13 "Brave Ukraines" tell a Russian vessel to fcuk off.
The Ghost of Chicken Kiev fighter pilot...
The attack on a Ukraine hospital.

I just wonder why Hunter Biden isn't over their defending his colleagues...

and covering up all of the Beijing Biden family corruption.

[bambino]

• Putin doesn't spy on us; our intelligence agencies do.

• Putin doesn't carry out false flags against us, our intelligence agencies do.

• Putin doesn't rig elections; our intelligence agencies do.

• Putin doesn't flood the world with dangerous drugs and weapons, our intelligence agencies do.

• Putin doesn't brainwash the minds of the masses; our intelligence agencies do.

• Putin doesn't take over foreign governments and use them as corruption playpens, our intelligence agencies do.

• Putin doesn't cover up the crimes of the elites, our intelligence agencies do.

• Putin doesn't facilitate human trafficking; our intelligence agencies do.

• Putin doesn't carry out crimes against humanity, our intelligence agencies do.

• PUTIN DOESN'T WORK FOR THE GLOBALISTS; OUR INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES DO.

- Relentless Truth

[Why_Yes_I_Do]

Originally Posted by HedonistForever

...Many of us strongly support the fight of Ukraine against the Russian invasion and have commended Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy for the heroic leadership that he has shown in the face of this unprovoked and savage attack. Yet, that support should not shield the country or Zelenskyy from criticism whether it involves filming POWs or cracking down on free speech. The latter concern has arisen after Zelenskyy banned Ukraine’s main opposition party and ten other parties...

Turley seems to have left out the bit about Volodmyr also consolidating all local media outlets under a single banner. Dat's right Hillary Clinton! Eat your heart out!

Well, if I may ask a single question: Are "we" supporting Ukraine because it is as innocent as fresh fallen snow and not a corrupt and abusive cesspit or is he saying that the only and exclusively evil thing is Russia, Russia, Russia (not counting Hillary Clinton) - as we have been hearing for the last 5 1/2 years here, at home, on our independent (**cough, propaganda, cough**) media?

I'm not adroit at history, but there are 3 things I do remember:
1) They have been a hot-mess for decades
2) Nobody here gave a rat's ass about Ukraine last year.
3) They are not a strategic interest or threat to us - as Obama stated

[HedonistForever]

Originally Posted by Why_Yes_I_Do

Turley seems to have left out the bit about Volodmyr also consolidating all local media outlets under a single banner. Dat's right Hillary Clinton! Eat your heart out!


Turley just put it a different way but it's there in his article.

Well, if I may ask a single question: Are "we" supporting Ukraine because it is as innocent as fresh fallen snow and not a corrupt and abusive cesspit or is he saying that only and exclusively evil thing is Russia, Russia, Russia (not counting Hillary Clinton) - as we have been hearing for the last 5 1/2 years here, at home, on our independent (**cough, propaganda, cough**) media?

I'm not adroit at history, but there are 3 things I do remember:
1) They have been a hot-mess for decades
2) Nobody here gave a rat's ass about Ukraine last year.
3) They are not a strategic interest or threat to us - as Obama stated

I can only speak for myself, I can't speak for "we", but what I said in this regard, is that "I" support this supplying of military aid because the Ukrainian people seem to want it, they want to fight for their homes and their country much like our colonist did.


I couldn't care less whether Zelenskyy's government wants this or not. I want to help innocent people from a bully just like I want laws in this country to help the innocent against bigger, stronger more ruthless people who will hurt them just for the hell of it or any other reason their sick minds might come up with.


I have also said, like Tucker Carlson, "questions", is this a good thing because without these weapons we are supplying, this might very well have been over in 72 hours like all our military experts thought would happen and thousands would still have a home, food to eat, water to drink but "living" under the rule of Putin. So they have decided, many, probably not all, that they would rather die than live that way, exactly what our founders thought and did.


All I'm saying is that both of these "options" should be freely discussed in a society that "use to" value free speech and not called "un-patriotic" or "shilling for Putin". Seems like we don't have that any more and that's a shame.


Saw a poll that said that 25 to 30% of Americans think that we should not be sending Ukraine this aid, not because they don't have sympathy for those that are dying and living in conditions no American can imagine but that they see all those millions, which can easily become billions the longer this goes on, could be better used by Americans, for Americans. That is their right to have and speak that opinion without being called a Putin puppet. That is asinine and insane in my opinion.


I happen to be a hawk but over the years I have come to temper when to be a hawk and when not. Now I find myself wanting to use this opportunity, at the expense of all this suffering, to hopefully defeat Putin and set Russia back to the dark ages or at least to a time when they are smart enough, brave enough to elect new leaders that don't have the mind set of a Putin.


If Putin is not defeated right now, he will be with us, against us, till he is dead which could be decades. It could also splinter this partnership with China which will be a very big problem for us going forward if Putin does win this war.


Who is right and who is wrong is not going to be settled by calling each other names because we have different, honest opinions that other Americans may not share but please, let's not give up on the one thing that separates us from Russia, the right to speak freely even if it disparages Zelenskyy while we support the Ukrainian people.

[Why_Yes_I_Do]

[Why_Yes_I_Do]

[Why_Yes_I_Do]

Originally Posted by HedonistForever

...If Putin is not defeated right now, he will be with us, against us, till he is dead which could be decades. It could also splinter this partnership with China which will be a very big problem for us going forward if Putin does win this war.

Who is right and who is wrong is not going to be settled by calling each other names because we have different, honest opinions that other Americans may not share but please, let's not give up on the one thing that separates us from Russia, the right to speak freely even if it disparages Zelenskyy while we support the Ukrainian people...

So you are saying we don't have a censorship problem in this here country - where people and entities get banned on Social Media because they have a different opinion from The Ministry of Truth?!? FFS, Twitter banned The Babylon Bee yesterday. Or are you saying we don't have a propaganda problem here with our independent media?!?

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Win, lose or draw, Putin is pretty well on his way to kill the Petro-Dollar. China and the Saudis are OK with that and the whole of the EU is stuck with that..

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Has anyone considered that Ukraine could end the insanity in 2 seconds flat with a surrender or capitulation with a settlement agreement? Not that Putin would necessarily drop the demise of the Petro-Dollar or anything. Remember, Zeleynski ain't Mother Teresa and Ukraine ain't some innocent angel with a shinny halo. Let's be real; Ukraine has pretty much been everyone's b*tch, when it comes to grifters.

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Do we also recall that Quid-Pro Joe was withholding US$1B to force Ukraine to change out a prosecutor that was investigating corruption in Ukraine, which included the energy company which his son was on the Board of Directors?!?