REVOLUTION? Or do you just want to feel safe?

[Caitie Mae]

I watch footage of conflict and political unrest during which citizens take a stand against governments that don't act as representatives of the people who elect them. I mean places like Kiev, where (eventually) thousands of citizens gathered in a demonstration against their elected president.

I find myself slack-jawed in amazement watching video of the first protesters gathering together, armed with little more than stones, propelled by their actual arms as they first clash with clash with police and other government forces, possessing firearms with both rubber bullets and live ammunition.

As I watch I wonder: would Americans do that? What would it take to make us hurl rocks at cops for the sake of change? Why don't we have piles of stones at our feet right now?

How much do we accept and settle for because we have a Walmart in every town, a Starbucks on every corner, a cell phone in every hand, The Tonight Show on every TV and the countdown to Kimye's nuptials in every publication?

I'm as guilty as anyone else of taking it on the chin with a shrug while the people to whom "we the people" give authority drive the value of our dollar into the dirt, unconstitutionally tax our labor and spend unfathomable amounts of money to conduct a failed war on drugs that Americans don't want. These issues (and many others) affect me, but somehow the impact is diminished greatly when I am sucking down a chocolate shake from McDonald's.

[ToriStarr]

Originally Posted by Caitie Mae

I watch footage of conflict and political unrest during which citizens take a stand against governments that don't act as representatives of the people who elect them. I mean places like Kiev, where (eventually) thousands of citizens gathered in a demonstration against their elected president.

I find myself slack-jawed in amazement watching video of the first protesters gathering together, armed with little more than stones, propelled by their actual arms as they first clash with clash with police and other government forces, possessing firearms with both rubber bullets and live ammunition.

As I watch I wonder: would Americans do that? What would it take to make us hurl rocks at cops for the sake of change? Why don't we have piles of stones at our feet right now?

How much do we accept and settle for because we have a Walmart in every town, a Starbucks on every corner, a cell phone in every hand, The Tonight Show on every TV and the countdown to Kimye's nuptials in every publication?

I'm as guilty as anyone else of taking it on the chin with a shrug while the people to whom "we the people" give authority drive the value of our dollar into the dirt, unconstitutionally tax our labor and spend unfathomable amounts of money to conduct a failed war on drugs that Americans don't want. These issues (and many others) affect me, but somehow the impact is diminished greatly when I am sucking down a chocolate shake from McDonald's.

Well said! I've had the fear for awhile of a second revolutionary war in America, oddly enough I both fear it happening and in some cases hope it happens. Then again, I'm also guilty as charged when it comes to taking it on the chin with a shrug. I think the majority of American's are too lazy and too spoiled to actually see what is happening and to care about it, we're told how lucky we are to have this and that, we live in the greatest nation on earth etc etc, yet turn a blind eye to the real issues, like the patriot act, facebook cooperating with the NSA, cooperate welfare for Walmart and all the other big chains etc etc. The problem is, for the most part the people who are politically active have the wrong intentions, and the people who have the best intentions either do not get involved or try to and get no where. There is a serious, and scary, lack of interest in politics...we care too much about, as you said, the countdown to Kims wedding, give me a break

PS- I like your location, it made me giggle

[Jagermonster]

The overwhelming majority of Americans prefer "security" over freedom. As long as they have their McDonalds and their Kardashians, they don't mind living in a prison state. The Americans of today are not the same as the ones of years past.

[Caitie Mae]

Originally Posted by ToriStarr

I've had the fear for awhile of a second revolutionary war in America, oddly enough I both fear it happening and in some cases hope it happens.

Originally Posted by Jagermonster

The overwhelming majority of Americans prefer "security" over freedom. As long as they have their McDonalds and their Kardashians, they don't mind living in a prison state. The Americans of today are not the same as the ones of years past.

But maybe there are Americans with the wherewithal to stand up to injustices carried out against our fellow citizens–against *us*–by those to whom we give authority to protect us from injustice. Maybe the revolution is starting. Have you felt the excited and anxious moment of uncertainty that walks hand-in-hand with the little voice in your head that won't stop screaming at you "don't let them do this to us!" when you realize that a fundamental right you previously took for granted is suddenly gone? I'll would wager that there are people in Nevada who feel it...

Search Nevada Revolution 2014 and read about citizens arming themselves and taking a stand in the desert right here... In the United States. Is this where our revolution starts? Is this where our line in the sand has been drawn? I regret that I don't understand the details enough to say that it might or might not be. I would love to know more about which side of this conflict is guilty of wrongdoing. Can someone help me out with this?

Originally Posted by ToriStarr

PS- I like your location, it made me giggle

[Mr MojoRisin]

Originally Posted by Jagermonster

The overwhelming majority of Americans prefer "security" over freedom. As long as they have their McDonalds and their Kardashians, they don't mind living in a prison state. The Americans of today are not the same as the ones of years past.

I agree with you. What's really sad though is those that take security over freedom will end up getting neither. Think about it. The Governments push to give you more security is really their strife in gaining more power and control.

Jim

[Whirlaway]

I'd vote for revolution - a velvet revolution. But I fear it would not end up where I wanted = A more Constitutional government based on Federalism, returning the power to the individual states and a very limited Federal role.

Add to the mix a significant portion of the population being 1st and 2nd generation Americans; people who have no concept of our 1st American revolution, much less the Constitution...they are not steeped in our history, nor do they fully share our culture. This cohort thinks bigger government is better; change is not needed because compared to where they come from this is utopia.

[Jackie S]

What has happenned in America is what has happenned to most great Nations that experimented with Democracy, even in the form of a Republic.

The people discover that they can vote for those that will promise them something for nothing, or promise them to take what someone else has and give it to them.

This brings forth the rise of the Demagogue, such as the President we now have in Office.

Once this cycle starts, it is very difficult to stop, which is why after 250-300 years or so, the Barbarians are knocking at the gate.

We have reached that point in the United States. The only reason the system still works is because those that produce have not yet said to hell with it all. If, and when they do, the entire system will collapse.

As was said in post #5, (it's a quote from Ben Franklin), those that choose security over freedom will soon have neither.

[Jewish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

I'd vote for revolution - a velvet revolution. But I fear it would not end up where I wanted = A more Constitutional government based on Federalism, returning the power to the individual states and a very limited Federal role.

Add to the mix a significant portion of the population being 1st and 2nd generation Americans; people who have no concept of our 1st American revolution, much less the Constitution...they are not steeped in our history, nor do they fully share our culture. This cohort thinks bigger government is better; change is not needed because compared to where they come from this is utopia.

That is why they are here! (They also provide cheap landscaping, housekeeping, and childcare for California liberals and cheap labor for big business Republicans.)

[JohnnyCap]

I think a key point in Franklin's quote is the word 'deserve':

“Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little Temporary safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

There are variations on the exact wording, but when we get whats coming to us, we will have deserved it.

[Chevalier]

Originally Posted by Caitie Mae

I regret that I don't understand the details enough to say that it might or might not be. I would love to know more about which side of this conflict is guilty of wrongdoing. Can someone help me out with this?

For what it's worth:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...al-government/

And from the comments:

The United States purchased the land from Mexico in 1848 known as the Mexican Cession (the southwestern region of the U.S.) as part of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. Since then, the US government has continuously owned land in what is now Nevada, including the Bunkerville Allotment. The Nevada Territory, which was partitioned in 1861 from the Utah Territory, became a state in 1864. Federal rangelands in Nevada have been since 1934 managed principally by either the Bureau of Land Management, its predecessor the United States Grazing Service, or the United States Forest Service.

Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt. Water rights were transferred too, but only to the ranch, not the federally managed land surrounding it. Court records show Bundy family cattle didn't start grazing on the land until 1954. The Bureau of Land Management was created 1946, the same year Cliven was born. Why are you are perpetuating the 1877 myth with that absurd quote? You are being irresponsible by allowing Cliven Bundy to write for you.

Under BLM permits first issued in 1954, the Bundy family grazed their cattle legally and paid the grazing fees on an area of public land surrounding Bunkerville called the Gold Butte area in Clark County until 1993. In 1993, Cliven Bundy did not pay to renew his permit and it was canceled one year later.

And from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff

--------------------

Revolutions tend to be perceived as legitimate when oppressed peoples have NO say in the rules that govern them, and when it involves serious violations of their rights and property. Think Hungary, Poland, America before the Revolution, Tianneman Square, the Arab Spring.

Less likely to be perceived as legitimate when you have the right to vote but disagree with what your fellow citizens deem acceptable - what gives your point of view priority over everyone else's? - AND when your "right" being violated is the right to graze your cattle on land that doesn't belong to you without paying for it.

I'd be much more concerned about issues like the NSA surveillance without a warrant, using a drone to kill an American citizen not during combat and without due process, etc.

Many people may agree with Bundy, but I suspect not nearly enough that his revolution will be considered as legitimate and lead to a wider uprising.

[IIFFOFRDB]

Originally Posted by Chevalier

For what it's worth:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...al-government/

And from the comments:

The United States purchased the land from Mexico in 1848 known as the Mexican Cession (the southwestern region of the U.S.) as part of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. Since then, the US government has continuously owned land in what is now Nevada, including the Bunkerville Allotment. The Nevada Territory, which was partitioned in 1861 from the Utah Territory, became a state in 1864. Federal rangelands in Nevada have been since 1934 managed principally by either the Bureau of Land Management, its predecessor the United States Grazing Service, or the United States Forest Service.

Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt. Water rights were transferred too, but only to the ranch, not the federally managed land surrounding it. Court records show Bundy family cattle didn't start grazing on the land until 1954. The Bureau of Land Management was created 1946, the same year Cliven was born. Why are you are perpetuating the 1877 myth with that absurd quote? You are being irresponsible by allowing Cliven Bundy to write for you.

Under BLM permits first issued in 1954, the Bundy family grazed their cattle legally and paid the grazing fees on an area of public land surrounding Bunkerville called the Gold Butte area in Clark County until 1993. In 1993, Cliven Bundy did not pay to renew his permit and it was canceled one year later.

And from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff

--------------------

Revolutions tend to be perceived as legitimate when oppressed peoples have NO say in the rules that govern them, and when it involves serious violations of their rights and property. Think Hungary, Poland, America before the Revolution, Tianneman Square, the Arab Spring.

Less likely to be perceived as legitimate when you have the right to vote but disagree with what your fellow citizens deem acceptable - what gives your point of view priority over everyone else's? - AND when your "right" being violated is the right to graze your cattle on land that doesn't belong to you without paying for it.

I'd be much more concerned about issues like the NSA surveillance without a warrant, using a drone to kill an American citizen not during combat and without due process, etc.

Many people may agree with Bundy, but I suspect not nearly enough that his revolution will be considered as legitimate and lead to a wider uprising.

The comments are always the best source of info... Thanks

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by Caitie Mae

... but somehow the impact is diminished greatly when I am sucking down a chocolate shake from McDonald's.

For some reason that line ...

.... refocused my thoughts to a Pre-Revolution Experience.

[Guest040616]

Originally Posted by Caitie Mae

... but somehow the impact is diminished greatly when I am sucking down a chocolate shake from McDonald's.

Originally Posted by LexusLover

For some reason that line ...

.... refocused my thoughts to a Pre-Revolution Experience.

Word To The Wise:

You had better be careful Caitie Mae!

I suspect LexiLiar (the Patriarch of the notorious Idiot clan) is trying to lure you in to his web of deception.

[Old-T]

Originally Posted by Caitie Mae

But maybe there are Americans with the wherewithal to stand up to injustices carried out against our fellow citizens–against *us*–by those to whom we give authority to protect us from injustice. Maybe the revolution is starting. Have you felt the excited and anxious moment of uncertainty that walks hand-in-hand with the little voice in your head that won't stop screaming at you "don't let them do this to us!" when you realize that a fundamental right you previously took for granted is suddenly gone? I'll would wager that there are people in Nevada who feel it...

Search Nevada Revolution 2014 and read about citizens arming themselves and taking a stand in the desert right here... In the United States. Is this where our revolution starts? Is this where our line in the sand has been drawn? I regret that I don't understand the details enough to say that it might or might not be. I would love to know more about which side of this conflict is guilty of wrongdoing. Can someone help me out with this?

So what you are saying is you are for the constitution so long as you get your way. You are for majority rule only if the majority agree with you. If they don't then overturn by force the government the majority voted for.

That sounds kind of wrong.

If you don't like where we have gone--rule by the minority fringe--THEN GO VOTE IN PRIMARIES. GET INVOLVED IN POLITICS. GET OTHERS INVOLVED.

And vote in people who believe as you do.

If you preach armed revolt, you are a traitor. I and millions of others will resist you even if we do not like the individuals we have in power.

[Jackie S]

Our Nation was founded on the concept of "we the people".

It can also be destroyed by that exact same concept.

In a Republic, it is not the unqualified Demagogues that brings forth a Nations downfall. It's the people who vote for them.