Some Thoughts on Some of the Responses to Ashlee's Alert Thread

[Shackleton]

Ashlee's post about being assaulted and raped in alerts and some of the responses got me to thinking. When someone posts an alert about something absolutely horrific happening to them, I think it is a total dick move to start interrogating or criticizing them or playing Sherlock Holmes in trying to pick apart every little detail of their story. I mean, WTF?! What kind of asshole does that to someone who says something like that has just happened to them? If you found out someone you didn't know in real life was saying she was assaulted and raped would you start interrogating her? You'd have to be a total douche. It's not like it's some trifling dispute about a NSNC or were her photos accurate. I think you should generally stay out of those threads if they don't concern you, but if you get your jollies as a wannabe Perry Mason on those sorts of threads, have at it. But, what Ashlee says happened to her is a whole order of magnitude more serious and people should use some common sense and decency.

I get that not everything posted in alerts is true. I get that there are two sides to every story. But, unless you've got a dog in the fight, what's the point? You're not the police. You're not on a jury. You're not even a moderator on a silly john message board. No one really gives a shit about your comment and, if Ashlee is telling the truth, it's hurtful and disrespectful to someone who has gone through such a traumatic event. If she's not telling the truth, then there's still no point in anything you've written. So, IMHO, if you've got no information to add, the appropriate response is something positive like sympathy, advice, assistance, etc., or . . . just . . . STFU!
__________________

[petershah]

I agree, my belief in this alert section is to notify others about something completely false or dangerous to yourself and others. If someone is suspecious of a particular post in alert, then should PM that person and if there is additional info gleemed from the PM, then one can post the further details. Idea is for someone to log onto eccie, scan or search for particular providers, get latest warnings or reviews, and get on with one's business. In this line of hobby, it takes one mistake and that mistake can be costly from money loss to death, so even if there is a argurable post, then it is up to the viewer to make their own call and own research.

[Jules Jaguar]

i agree as well!
for that same reason a lot of ladies will not publicly post an alert in co-ed...

i think its really sad =(

[ShysterJon]

Amen to Shackleton! I'm often annoyed by the ridiculous pontificating by male members here on topics on which it's painfully obvious they know nothing about. (Since they're male members, maybe we should call them "dicks"). I realize this place is friendlier than ASPD was, by and large. But sometimes I wish Namssa was around to keep these schmucks in line.

I think I'm going to start handing out a "Cliff Claven Award" to the most extreme blowhard I come across, like I used to give out a "Huggy Bear Award" to the most sickening boosters of particular girls. It was a tough choice picking only one winner from Ashlee's alert thread (I counted six guys who deserved it). But I would have awarded the first ShysterJon Cliff Claven Award to Humpty Dumpty. I say "would have" because he's been banned. So I'll just have to wait for another day to pick the first winner.

Cliff Claven

[Horsemancummeth]

I thought I had missed out on some things because my grandfather raised me. Then as life went on I realized I had actually been very fortunate.He wasnt a genious by any means. But he had more common sense in his thumb then most people had in there whole body. He taught me so much about respect for others and to take a wait and see attitude. He also taught me that if you would take a deep breath and step back you are less likely to make a fool of yourself.
This thread proved his point in a sad way. I prefer to keep my mouth shut and be thought of as a fool, then to open it and prove it. We are all supposed to be adults here. But lately I an reading more and more of the most ignorant comments.
I only hope a few have learned from Ashleys thread. This young lady was raped and basicly held against her will. Yet she came on here and wanted to warn the other ladies so it would not happen to them. That is nothing short of commendable. Yet we have ignorant people want to come on here and be judge and jury. I wonder to all the boys, cause they are not men in my book. How they would have felt if this had been there wife or daughter.
Ashley, I hope and pray you get through this tough time and can get back to somewhat of a normal life. Shyster, I have faith in you that she will be provided with sound advice and help that she needs. To all others that are helping, I want to thank you for going above and beyond without pre-judging. I also hope we have all learned a lesson in life here.Unfortunatly, there is no cure for stupid.

[TinMan]

It is almost always a smart move, when a subject like this comes up, to avoid the temptation to chime in when you have no pertinent facts, until such time as the dust has settled and you can come to a reasonable conclusion as to what really happened.

Otherwise, you run a pretty high risk of looking the fool when you turn out to be wrong.

[Kayleehotchick]

As a rape victim myself, I found that people in general feel like that can say whatever they want to you about the subject with no regards about your feelings. Sad but true.

My thoughts and my heart goes out to her...

[Randy4Candy]

We just don't know for sure what is going on - or at least we're not getting that information through the forums - and that's probably not bad at all. This isn't something which needs to have every detail paraded through these streets.

I hope it gets resolved and that the hurts are soothed, somehow. One thing is for sure - it won't be quick and easy.

[TexTushHog]

I largely agree with most of what is said. But to play devil's advocate for a moment, there are two things that bear mentioning. The first, and the one that is perhaps most pertinent in this situation, is that in many cases, there is not one, but two members of our community involved in these accusations. So the tendency that some find natural to close ranks around one of your own results in some cognitive dissonance. I barely even remembered Sweetbabyjesus from the board. But had the accusation been made against a better known, and more popular hobbyist, the tendency to ask questions and try to reconcile two dissonant thoughts (sympathy for the alleged victim and how could our on line "friend" allegedly do such a thing).

The second issue involves the cognitive concept of "defensive attribution." Defensive attribution is the restructuring or conceiving of events so as the blame ends up on the victim. It is part of a way of thinking so that people end up with the end thought of "oh, that can't happen to me."Here is how one of the early leading articles in the field describe it:

Walster (1966) introduced the theoretical position that underlies the basic paradigm used by researchers who investigate the role
of self-protective motives in the attribution of responsibility for an accident. According to Walster, the awareness of a severe accident
generates for the individual a need to believe that the unfortunate event was controllable and may therefore be averted in the future.

http://www.scu.edu/cas/psychology/fa...er-PB-1981.pdf

Even if you tell them a story where there is obviously no victim fault -- a lady was at home, sleeping in bed, and a meteor crashed through the ceiling and killed her -- they will ask questions in an attempt to restructure the story so as to make it come out that they somehow would have been killed in the same circumstance. "I would have heard it," "My house is built really well," etc. Therefore to avoid feeling that they could happen to them, or just to feel better that there is no such thing as bad things happening to good people, they ask questions until they can find a way to blame the victim. "She didn't screen well," "she had seen him before and should have figured out he was a weirdo," "she should have had a code word," etc. People are very uncomfortable with the notion that sometimes you are the victim and there is nothing you can do.

I think that these two facets of this type of situation lead to some of the behavior that you see and is discussed herein.

[txcwby6]

When someone's been assaulted like that it's almost impossible to do anything but ask "what can I do?" and offer support and sympathy for the victim of such a base violation. How can anyone that hasn't experienced something like that offer any opinion or advice? You want the victim to feel that she's being supported but you really can't say "I know how you feel" unless you're also a rape victim so you're left with just offering support and being there when/if the time arises where she seeks out help. I can't imagine where or how a victim starts the healing process. Whenever I've confronted a tragedy or harmful event in my life my extended family has been there for support. Is that where healing starts? Or is this kind of assault so harmful and traumatic that it needs the intervention of trained specialists? I've read the statistics regarding how many rapes go unreported but I've often wondered if that means unreported to the police for a criminal investigation or unreported period.It's very sad if there are victims that are either too shcoked to seek help or feel that it's their own issue with which to deal. Again, I've never been a victim like this so it's uncomfortable even trying to assign motivations re why it's so under-reported.

[ShysterJon]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

I largely agree with most of what is said. But to play devil's advocate for a moment, there are two things that bear mentioning. The first, and the one that is perhaps most pertinent in this situation, is that in many cases, there is not one, but two members of our community involved in these accusations. So the tendency that some find natural to close ranks around one of your own results in some cognitive dissonance. I barely even remembered Sweetbabyjesus from the board. But had the accusation been made against a better known, and more popular hobbyist, the tendency to ask questions and try to reconcile two dissonant thoughts (sympathy for the alleged victim and how could our on line "friend" allegedly do such a thing).

I hear ya, TTH, and I agree. I may be in a unique position to comment on this because I've had a direct account from Ashlee of what she says transpired with the hobbyist, her account made sense to me, I can't think of a good reason for her to lie, and her account has remained consistent over repeated tellings. Clients lie to me all the time and it's often very easy to tell when they are. But when someone gives me an account the way Ashlee did, I tend to believe them. On the other hand, sweetbabyjesus has yet to respond to Ashlee's allegations, at least respond here.

But that's just one side of the equation. Just a few months ago I was the target of accusations by a provider. Just as with Ashlee, members who know neither me nor the provider jumped in with their unsupported opinions on the matter. At the same time, members who know either the provider or me wrote "seems out of character for him/her" posts. Being human (despite being an attorney -- haha), I was thankful for my supporters and ticked off at my detractors. I think ultimately the majority of readers -- who know neither me nor the provider -- came to their own conclusions based on which version of events made more sense rather than the board credibility of the writer.

Those who know me from ASPD also know that I was involved in a sticky personal dispute with a provider there that was briefly aired in public.

So like I said, I think my perspective may be unique because I've been inside such situations as well as outside them looking in while I evaluate the facts.

I don't tend to read "he said, she said" threads here because I'm just not interested. About the only time I will is if I know one of the parties. Like anyone, I may have preconceptions based on knowing one of the parties before I read the thread. (TTH noted this phenomenon.) Usually I'll have a favorable preconception, so I'll tend to believe the person I know over a stranger. But if I read two competing versions of an event and one makes more logical sense to me than the other, I hope I have enough brains left to put my preconceptions aside.

I don't have a problem with anyone pointing out logical inconsistencies in a person's story. What's like fingernails scraping a blackboard to me are certain male members here using a factual situation to pontificate on general topics, many of them with little or no relation to the fact situation presented. I'd like to shoo those 'tards out of here like flies on my Twinkie. I also get annoyed with members choosing sides based on gender. Girls and boys, let me tell you a secret: Not every member of your sex tells the truth. A lot of guys here think because he paid a girl to suck his wingy-wangy and be nice to his dumb ass for a few minutes that means she's the epitome of truth and credibility. They'll believe a provider's story no matter how ridiculous it is. After all, they believed her when she said he was the best lay she ever had and she came 20 times.

Originally Posted by txcwby6

How can anyone that hasn't experienced something like that offer any opinion or advice? You want the victim to feel that she's being supported but you really can't say "I know how you feel" unless you're also a rape victim so you're left with just offering support and being there when/if the time arises where she seeks out help.

I know you're just writing shorthand comments, but you can't mean that literally. Any crime victim needs support from friends and family to lessen the pain, and that's part of the healing process. But I'm Ashlee's attorney so I would not be doing my best job if I allowed myself to become entwined in the horrible emotion involved in what happened to her. I probably couldn't be her objective counselor if I'd been the victim of a terrible, violent crime.

I also know I'm not a mental health care professional, so part of my job is to make sure Ashlee gets the kind of professional help she needs. One shouldn't expect a crime victim to seek out help on their own. In my lay opinion, the ability of a crime victim to make rational decisions is inversely proportional to the trauma they've experienced. As some on here know, getting Ashlee to help herself has been quite a task.

[txcwby6]

Shyster, the portion of my statement you quote above is likely not phrased as accurately as it should be or isn't being read in the proper context. My comment related to the responses that pointed out how some people offer up solutions or opinions without ever having experienced that which they now present themselves as an expert in the field. I believe I pointed out that family is important but asked whether family is enough under the circumstances

[Kayleehotchick]

I say this not only for Ashlee's sake but for any victim of rape. Most local women center has low cost or free rape crisis counseling.

http://www.womenscenter.info/

http://irvingwiki.cityofirving.org/i...-Dallas_County

[rummerpaul]

The majority of men on here dont know her, or him. Some of you may have the illusion that is is a close-knit community. These are the people who maybe spend too much time on here. Hearing this story from the perspective of someone who knows no one involved is like watching a story on the news. If things seem off, even at ALL, it opens itself up to scrutiny as well as sympathy and a variety of things, as it always will be when publicized. If scrutiny is not wanted or welcome then people should not air out such dirty laundry in public.

To those of you who cannot fathom that every single person would sympathize or have a bleeding heart: Atrocious things happen all over the world on a daily basis. Things we hear and/or see about and things we don't. If one's heart instantly bled for every victim of bad things..they'd have no heart left for those they DO know.

If we want to get psychological (myself with no specific textbook knowledge of such things or desire to quote such knowledge); What i DO know is that someone who has experienced an event as traumatic as this (essentially abducted, raped and abused by a man threatening to kill or hurt himself) TYPICALLY does not have a strong desire to jump on a computer shortly after and recall the events at hand in explicit detail. This would essentially be re-living the experience all over again. Such details usually must be coaxed out of a victim of such a horrible experience.

I have, myself, been in a position that put me in immediate and serious danger. Such a situation is, if any, the ONE time I would not come online and share. It's far too serious for that and putting it out for everyone to see in full detail is not in any way close the proper course of action. Of course, given legitimacy, warnings ought to be made (our ought they? If it is as said, this guy would be behind bars in a matter of hours) I know the ladies have such private places for these warnings. Or at the very most it should be a matter of "I was seriously assaulted. Ladies PM me for details." Now...if the police are involved she should absolutely not be sharing this information publicly and giving out even the online identity of this person. Such information could easily compromise what might be an open and shut investigation. Again, if it's as told, the police could locate this person without any trouble what-so-ever so if he's not yet in jail then something is awry.

Originally Posted by Shackleton

Ashlee's post about being assaulted and raped in alerts and some of the responses got me to thinking.

Exactly. As it has many. How can you start a thread calling people names, spouting profanities and in that same rant talk about staying out of things? You basically just just up and wanted to start a thread to bash people? Something seems wrong with something that was put out there (or more specifically in your case....the response to it) and you voice your opinion. Exactly.

Originally Posted by Shackleton

....trying to pick apart every little detail of their story. I mean, WTF?! What kind of asshole does that to someone who says something like that has just happened to them?

A police officer. A lawyer. Many people.

Originally Posted by Shackleton

I think you should generally stay out of those threads if they don't concern you

It doesnt concern you, me, the police, the therapist, or anyone on here that is not a close friend or immediate family member of hers. Yet you feel the need to express your opinion all the same as everyone. If you cannot handle opinions that differ from yours then there is no point in joining in on any conversation of any topic.

[ShysterJon]

Originally Posted by Kayleehotchick

I say this not only for Ashlee's sake but for any victim of rape. Most local women center has low cost or free rape crisis counseling.

http://www.womenscenter.info/

http://irvingwiki.cityofirving.org/i...-Dallas_County

The second link Kaylee provides is a summary of contact information for the Victim Intervention Program / Rape Crisis Center at Parkland Hospital, which has the largest rape crisis program in the area. More information is here:

http://www.parklandhospital.com/medi...p_rape_crisis/

The 24-hr. hotline number is (214) 590-0430.