Thank You Tiny and the ECCIE Fiscal Hawks

[1blackman1]

Unless the CBO and the House and Senate are just wrong, the deficit and debt will skyrocket under the Trump Big Bufoon Bill. This is what you fiscal hawks asked for and supported in the election by supporting Trump. More deficits and more debt burden and a 5,000,000,000,000 debt ceiling increase. That should tell us all we need to know, they expect the debt to raise by up to 5,000,000,000,000.

Well, I’ll again say thank you.

[Yssup Rider]

Do you think they realize that Trump has/had no idea what this abomination of a bill says?

It ain't a bill. It's an invoice.

[Precious_b]

Maggies always raging on the $$$$ demmies go through/throw away.

You can definitely say they are hypocrites in being fiscal conservatives.

Be nice to see if a study will come about showing the results of maggie/demmie spending and return on investment.

[Tiny]

Please get a grip Blackman. “Tiny and the ECCIE Fiscal Hawks” didn’t vote for the bill. And my vote in 2020 went to Chase Oliver.

I agree with Rand Paul, the bill sucks. Rand had the right idea, cut all federal programs by 7%, across the board. I might take a bigger chunk out of defense and leave aid to destitute countries intact, but those are just personal preferences.

Ideally it would have been good to see a flatter, much, much simpler tax system with lower rates and fewer loopholes. If that can’t happen, then at least do away with the QBI deduction for pass through businesses and capital gains treatment for performance fees realized by hedge and private equity funds.

As to personal rates, either leave them where they are now or revert to pre-2018 levels, for ALL taxpayers. Don’t continue with your party’s charade that there’s plenty to pay for everything our hearts desire if the rich would just pay their fair share. If you want universal health care, a minimum income, a chicken in every pot, etc., everybody’s going to have to pay up.

This country’s on an unsustainable course. It can’t continue with federal budget deficits of 6% or 7% of GDP for as far as the eye can see, even in peacetime, when the economy’s humming.

Your party is every bit or more responsible for the mess we’re in as the Republicans. At least when the Republicans cut taxes, the money stays in the pockets of hardworking Americans and boosts GDP. You guys on the other hand seem even more inclined than the Republicans to dish out the corporate pork in ways that contribute to economic inefficiency. And how about the signature legislation of the Biden presidency, the $1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan (ARP)? That was shear idiocy. It ran up our national debt and what did we got for it? Eight percent inflation? Larry Summers agrees. The ARP was stupider than Trump's tariffs.

Too bad politicians like the Gipper (aka Ronald Reagan) and Bill Clinton aren't around anymore. They knew how to reach across the aisle and solve the nation's problems. The current bunch are hyper partisans that only care about winning their next elections, instead of doing what's best for the country.

[txdot-guy]

The reason the deficit was so bad under biden is the same reason it’s so bad now. The OBBBA is extending the tax cuts that Biden lived through for another decade. Sheer foolishness.

I understand that no one likes paying their taxes but the only way out of this mess is to increase our revenues. The extension of the tax cuts are the vast majority of the deficit spending that will come about from this bill.

Revert to pre-2018 levels, for ALL taxpayers. Don’t continue with your party’s charade that there’s plenty to pay for everything our hearts desire if the rich would just pay their fair share. If you want universal health care, a minimum income, a chicken in every pot, etc., everybody’s going to have to pay up.

I agree 100 percent!

[Salty Again]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Please get a grip Blackman. “Tiny and the ECCIE Fiscal Hawks” didn’t vote for the bill. And my vote in 2020 went to Chase Oliver.

Your party is every bit or more responsible for the mess we’re in as the Republicans. At least when the Republicans cut taxes, the money stays in the pockets of hardworking Americans and boosts GDP. You guys on the other hand seem even more inclined than the Republicans to dish out the corporate pork in ways that contribute to economic inefficiency. And how about the signature legislation of the Biden presidency, the $1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan (ARP)? That was shear idiocy. It ran up our national debt and what did we got for it? Eight percent inflation? Larry Summers agrees. The ARP was stupider than Trump's tariffs.

Too bad politicians like the Gipper (aka Ronald Reagan) and Bill Clinton aren't around anymore. They knew how to reach across the aisle and solve the nation's problems. The current bunch are hyper partisans that only care about winning their next elections, instead of doing what's best for the country.

... Too Right! ... I surely agree with Tiny's assessment
of things...

#### Salty

[1blackman1]

Sir Tiny

5 Trillion is more that 1.9 Trillion. So everything you wrote is just a load of crap. So, I am not the one that needs to get a grip. Nothing I said is false. And whomever you voted for in 2020 is irrelevant to the 2024 support of Trump. You did not have to vote for the bill if you supported the folks that did vote for it. You are all getting what you deserve. Embrace it.

[farmstud60]

There is no accurate accounting in any of these score cards. They ignore changes of income patterns with changes of tax codes and instead use a static analysis. They also use baseline budgeting so even a 10% budget cut actually increases spending.

[adav8s28]

Originally Posted by Tiny

I agree with Rand Paul, the bill sucks. Rand had the right idea, cut all federal programs by 7%, across the board. I might take a bigger chunk out of defense and leave aid to destitute countries intact, but those are just personal preferences.

Ideally it would have been good to see a flatter, much, much simpler tax system with lower rates and fewer loopholes.

As to personal rates, either leave them where they are now or revert to pre-2018 levels, for ALL taxpayers. Don’t continue with your party’s charade that there’s plenty to pay for everything our hearts desire if the rich would just pay their fair share. If you want universal health care, a minimum income, a chicken in every pot, etc., everybody’s going to have to pay up.

This country’s on an unsustainable course. It can’t continue with federal budget deficits of 6% or 7% of GDP for as far as the eye can see, even in peacetime, when the economy’s humming.

Your party is every bit or more responsible for the mess we’re in as the Republicans. At least when the Republicans cut taxes, the money stays in the pockets of hardworking Americans and boosts GDP. You guys on the other hand seem even more inclined than the Republicans to dish out the corporate pork in ways that contribute to economic inefficiency. And how about the signature legislation of the Biden presidency, the $1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan (ARP)? That was shear idiocy. It ran up our national debt and what did we got for it? Eight percent inflation? Larry Summers agrees. The ARP was stupider than Trump's tariffs.

My main man Tiny, I agree with you on paragraphs 1 - 4. Yes, everyone has to pay (all income levels). However, the the 7th tax bracket should be at 39% or 40% instead of 36.5% this is why we are running these large deficits. When Obama left office the deficit for his last fiscal year in office was $585 billion. It has exploded since, starting then with Trumps first term in office. Consider the deficit chart below. You can see how the deficit below exploded since Obama's last year in office.

I have to disagree with you on paragraph #5. Trumps tariffs are stupider than the American Rescue plan. The main cause of the 8% inflation was the supply chain problems caused by the pandemic that Trump mishandled. Remember Trump did not believe in trying to test people and isolate the positives so the spread of SARS_CoV2 virus was worse than it should have been. Remember Dr Birx (the Dr with the colorful scars) advised Trump to test people before CoVid19 spread out of control, but he would not listen to her.

The American Rescue plan bought a lot of jobs and helped get the unemployment rate down below 4%. The GDP numbers, the Stock market and the unemployment rate were good measurement numbers under Biden/Harris despite Biden's decline.

https://www.thebalancemoney.com/us-d...y-year-3306306

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by txdot-guy

The reason the deficit was so bad under biden is the same reason it’s so bad now. The OBBBA is extending the tax cuts that Biden lived through for another decade. Sheer foolishness.

I understand that no one likes paying their taxes but the only way out of this mess is to increase our revenues. The extension of the tax cuts are the vast majority of the deficit spending that will come about from this bill.



I agree 100 percent!

You can cut federal government spending too TxDot. When you cut out the petrostates and small places, mainly tax havens like Monaco, the most prosperous places in the world have historically had smaller government and lower taxes: Hong Kong, Singapore, Switzerland, Ireland, and the USA.

Also, when the power of the purse is closest to the people, government is more efficient. That argues for pushing more tax collection and spending onto the state and local level instead of vesting it with a federal bureaucracy.

That said, we both strongly agree, that if we're going to have government provide lots of stuff, we've got to pay for it.

Other bad parts of the bill that we haven't discussed IMO include no taxes on tips, no tax on overtime, and increasing the SALT limit. These complicate the tax system and make it less efficient. I do like immediate expensing of capital costs, which makes the system less complicated and encourages investment.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by adav8s28

My main man Tiny, I agree with you on paragraphs 1 - 4. Yes, everyone has to pay (all income levels). However, the the 7th tax bracket should be at 39% or 40% instead of 36.5% this is why we are running these large deficits. When Obama left office the deficit for his last fiscal year in office was $585 billion. It has exploded since, starting then with Trumps first term in office. Consider the deficit chart below. You can see how the deficit below exploded since Obama's last year in office.

I have to disagree with you on paragraph #5. Trumps tariffs are stupider than the American Rescue plan. The main cause of the 8% inflation was the supply chain problems caused by the pandemic that Trump mishandled. Remember Trump did not believe in trying to test people and isolate the positives so the spread of SARS_CoV2 virus was worse than it should have been. Remember Dr Birx (the Dr with the colorful scars) advised Trump to test people before CoVid19 spread out of control, but he would not listen to her.

The American Rescue plan bought a lot of jobs and helped get the unemployment rate down below 4%. The GDP numbers, the Stock market and the unemployment rate were good measurement numbers under Biden/Harris despite Biden's decline.

https://www.thebalancemoney.com/us-d...y-year-3306306

We may disagree somewhat on Trump's handling of COVID and a lot on the American Rescue Plan, but that's a good, well argued post Adav8s28. The Topic Police are out in force, so I'll reply in the "How are we going to pay for all this shit" thread. Will be back with you.

Also, the maximum marginal federal rate is 40.8% for self employment income and investment income, which probably accounts for most of upper income taxpayers total income. (Admittedly long term capital gains and qualified dividends are taxed at 23.8%.) And would go to 43.4% under your proposal. Add the state income tax and many Americans would be paying 50%+ marginal rates. We already have the most progressive tax system in the OECD, and upper income taxpayers pay at European rates. You take it much higher and the USA will end up like France under Hollande. The wealthy will figure out ways to pay less tax in ways that will make the economy less efficient, or leave.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by 1blackman1

Sir Tiny

5 Trillion is more that 1.9 Trillion. So everything you wrote is just a load of crap. So, I am not the one that needs to get a grip. Nothing I said is false. And whomever you voted for in 2020 is irrelevant to the 2024 support of Trump. You did not have to vote for the bill if you supported the folks that did vote for it. You are all getting what you deserve. Embrace it.

Where did you pull that 5 trillion number Blackman? Out of Pinocchio's ass? The CBO and JCT estimates range from $2.3 to $3.3 trillion. And those are static estimates -- see Farmstud's post.

What would it be if Democrats controlled the presidency and Congress? They certainly would have left the cuts in place for Americans making less than $250,000 or $400,000 or whatever. They wouldn't have cut out some of the green corporate pork the Republicans did. They would have removed the SALT cap, etc.

To the extent that the $2.3 to $3.3 trillion is caused by lower taxes, that's more money left in the hands of hardworking Americans. And more left with businesses, which will drive investment, salaries, and lower prices. GDP growth will be higher than it would be otherwise because of lower taxes.

And hell yeah, we have no business running up huge deficits in peacetime when we're not facing a recession. They need to cut spending. Make federal government more efficient. Push more of it onto the states and localities, which are much better stewards of our tax dollars than the feds.

Maybe you've spent too much time in politics and don't understand people can think independently. Just because I agree with Trump about Ukraine, deregulation and corporate taxes doesn't mean I believe the federal government should spend like a drunken sailor.

[VitaMan]

Another little slugfest between 2 members.


Why not take it offline ?

[Ducbutter]

Pearls before swine, Tiny.

[txdot-guy]

Originally Posted by Tiny

You can cut federal government spending too TxDot. When you cut out the petrostates and small places, mainly tax havens like Monaco, the most prosperous places in the world have historically had smaller government and lower taxes: Hong Kong, Singapore, Switzerland, Ireland, and the USA.

One of the reasons that these countries are so successful is that they are all involved in the financial system that helps people shelter their wealth.

https://theconversation.com/these-fi...x-havens-79555

The Netherlands, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, Singapore and Ireland are among the rich countries that funnel major corporate money into secret offshore tax shelters, according to a new study.