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Expression, Information & Dignity in an Open Marketplace
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Expression, Information & Dignity in an Open Marketplace
The overbearing title of this thread was chosen deter certain readers because it turns out that even if you put someone on your ignore list, you can still read the titles of the threads they start. Seems like an oversight to me.
Consider the actual pithier title to be Behavioral Sexonomics.
This post isn’t meant to sway the closed-minded. It’s an appeal to those willing to listen to reason. It isn’t intended to offend anyone, but offense is always a risk whenever anyone speaks. Hopefully those who are offended won’t let it stop them from considering the argument I’m making.
Free thinkers take it as read that free expression is a necessary precondition for freedom of thought, because thought itself hinges on the unhindered flow of information between thinkers.
Any economist can tell you that the health of a marketplace depends on free and open availability of accurate information including price signals – the prices buyers and sellers can agree upon. This is true for any type of commodity, whether goods or services. Fine, most of you already know this; it’s basic stuff after all.
So the trillion dollar question is: why don’t more people practice it? Why the belief that price signals are bad mojo? Why the hew and haw whenever information is evaluated for accuracy? A misrepresented service might sell a few times, but trustworthy information will bring satisfied customers to a firm on a repeat basis. Why do sellers shoot themselves in the foot by pushing an image of their services that is only loosely related to what they’re selling? Why do their exponents try to help them do it?
Usually, because of a few misconceived notions about what constitutes dignity. Our culture raises people to be like the Court Sycophants of Ancient Greece (Hellas if you actually live there), never saying anything unless they have something nice to say. In an open marketplace, you may as well suck all the oxygen out of a room. Without comprehensive and dependable information, the market breaks down. It can no longer pair compatible buyers and sellers with any consistency because they don’t know what to expect from each other. All because of confusion about what is being sold.
This problem is augmented in the sex work industry. Women are routinely taught that their dignity is contingent on deference to their sexuality, and men are commonly taught to praise or ignore it, but never directly critique it. The magazine Cosmopolitan has made no small fortune by trying to help straight women guess what the typical straight man really wants. It’s often wildly inaccurate, but it still sells well in a culture where men keep their traps shut or tell women what they think they want to hear. So, like most pop psychologists, hard-working Cosmo writers play on insecurity and preconceptions to reaffirm what sounds comforting. You’re doing the right thing, and a bottle of X’s new perfume line is just the boost you need to help you do it better. Meanwhile, reality doesn’t intrude. Good for Cosmo. They see a market and tailor their product to sell well.
When the services being sold are sexual in nature, this leads to disaster. People indoctrinated by this way of thinking come to see women’s bodies as pieces of meat, not sovereign instruments of commerce. The meat must be praised and put on a pedestal. Any signal indicating the price buyers are willing to pay the woman to employ her body in the performance of services she offers is instead and quite irrationally seen as a signal about what she herself is worth as a human being. Yet most who see it that way would never suggest that what someone would pay an athlete or a soldier has bearing on that person’s value as a human being. Most would think it grammatically incorrect to say pay for an athlete or pay for a soldier, but don’t bat an eye at talking about paying for a woman.
Why are women who sell sex treated differently? The obvious reason is because sex is treated differently, as something more sacred than anything else. The less obvious reason is because well-meaning men (quite laudably) want to be gentlemen and follow the social mores that superficially and hypocritically disdain the commodification of sexual services while allowing and even encouraging markets for them to flourish. Sexuality is regarded as synonymous with women, not merely one aspect of women. Well-intentioned gentlemen walk on eggshells and place sex workers on a pedestal, while disdainful men put them in a gutter, instead of the other side of a mutually beneficial trade relationship. Meanwhile our culture propagates to women the sense that any information about dissatisfaction with them as partners of any kind or unwillingness regarding the costs of keeping their company is “negative” information that hurts their status. So many work harder on selling an image than a service, and service suffers as a direct result.
What’s the right way to show respect for a businessperson? Honest feedback. Sycophancy is an insult to all intelligence. It’s never a favor in any circumstances whether from a teacher to a pupil, a patriot to a homeland, or a courtier to his emperor. In business it’s even worse. It’s a harmful deception giving sellers bad information to act on.
The last ten or so years has seen the rise of businesses catering to other businesses that want to stage-manage their online images by steering prospective clients away from criticism and towards glowing praise. To a certain extent these image managers are a bad investment. But at least even some of them understand that the best way to do this is by getting a firm to solicit private feedback and for the firm to address the clients to their satisfaction so they go from critics to proponents. I used to work in a field that now calls itself business intelligence. It’s exactly what it sounds like. The best data for making decisions isn’t grown by an ad campaign; it’s gathered in the wild. Businesses that embrace feedback gain insight their competitors don’t, and that can be translated into a tangible market advantage. Now if you’re a businessperson, which do you want: unalloyed praise or more money?
The flip side is a willingness to listen to what the customers are saying. If a sex worker is offended when customers treat her services like they would any other commodity by offering honest, frank, unfiltered and even completely irreverent feedback about what those services are worth to them, she’s making a mistake they are not, the mistake of thinking of the worth of her services as the worth of herself, her subjectively perceived beauty as her humanity, and her image as her dignity.
A general entreat to no one in particular: This is only the internet. It’s a wonderful resource, but it isn’t the real world any more than the corkboard at the local bar is the real world. There’s some cool stuff here, some witty people, some people who make a career out of taking offense, and a wealth of useful information. It isn’t Ragnarok. No great cultural upheavals will start or end in these forums. We’re just on this board to meet fun people and get busy. So it is with heartfelt kindness that I gently recommend lightening up, Francis (and Francine). Group hug.
If it wasn't for all the flowery language, I'd say that Toyz managed to hack Centaurs account.
Centaur, all that above seems to taking Toyz side in your on-going Price-is-Right debate.
Personally, I think Toyz approach is basically one of your price signals. The problem is all the commentary from the peanut gallery that ends up taking it into potential ridicule territory.
BTW: was the above accepted by your advisor for your thesis? Seems a bit short.
First of all I think you are making a false analogy. Business isn't conducted on this site. There are ads for those seeking services. But you never see:
Hey i'm available Thursday at 3pm
Me too!
$300 ?
include a bbbj and then sticking your tongue in my ear?
Uhh sure ok
deal!
Ok I'll be at the poontang inn
see you Thursday
No this site is for entertainment and advertising. The entertainment generates the traffic to set banner ad prices so the site is profitable and stay up. the advertising gives us all reasons to post our entertaining thoughts here and not elsewhere.
Now, you asked why sex workers get treated different, I posit they don't.
I don't find it grammatically incorrect to pay for an athlete; in fact if I owned a sports team I would no doubt pay for several. I do see something amiss with "paying for a woman" out of context. With in these walls it is understood I am paying for an escort, not buying a woman on the black market. Much like if this were a site for home repair and somebody said "I got a guy" it would be understood that they hired someone (probably an unlicenced general contractor) to do a task.
Ultimately, I think you are looking at the function of this site incorrectly. To me it reads far more like a video game message board, especially one where there is RTM (Real Money Trade) for in-game items. Most people bash the game and the company for every bug found. Cliques are formed to "game the system" to get the most reward for the least investment. Few trying to sell their wares and services. etc etc...
As far as honest feedback for a business transaction the closest thing we have is the review system. Not perfect but mostly effective. I wish the ladies could read at least their own reviews, if not all reviews like some other sites. I think it would keep people more honest, and also allow for better "business exchange" that you are looking for.
lmao is that the best you can do? just focus on throwing more of your fellow providers under the bus and kissing the men's asses on this board for more business ms. eryn and you will be just fine. i see my reply on your review got to you. good that means there was some truth to it.
Personally, I think Toyz approach is basically one of your price signals. The problem is all the commentary from the peanut gallery that ends up taking it into potential ridicule territory.
Many of them, I would say.
Toyz isn’t responsible for the behavior of others; they are.
There is no on-going debate. I have no quarrel with Toyz. He’s among my favorite people here. And now I can enjoy his levity and post my thoughts without keeping up with everything he posts all day every day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoulRon
BTW: was the above accepted by your advisor for your thesis? Seems a bit short.
Everyone knows academic standards are in decline But no, I have no formal training whatsoever in finance, economics or psychology, so I cannot speak with expert authority on any of those subjects. I’m not even sure I’m using the term behavioral economics correctly. These are just some of the things I learned operating a small business as I think they apply to an admittedly very different industry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob McV
Business isn't conducted on this site.
True, but exchanging information about business is this site’s raison d’etre. It effectively serves, incidentally and not as its primary purpose, as a conduit for small independent business women (and a few men) to observe what the market is saying about them both collectively and individually. In reviews yes, but also in co-ed and alerts. I don’t think feedback is why this site exists, but I do believe it’s one of the main places it happens anyway, that this place is therefore implicitly part of the marketplace, and that it’s to everyone’s calculated advantage to encourage feedback’s unencumbered flow within site guidelines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob McV
I don't find it grammatically incorrect to pay for an athlete; in fact if I owned a sports team I would no doubt pay for several.
Interesting. I suppose I’d say I was hiring an athlete. On a home repair board, I’d probably say I have a friend who or I know a guy who such and such. I’m not saying you’re wrong or that the different construction connotes ownership. Just different ways of using grammar. But I maintain that many (not all) buyers and sellers treat information exchange in the sex work industry differently from in other industries for the cultural reasons I outlined above. Even so, you’ve definitely given me something to think about there. Thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob McV
I wish the ladies could read at least their own reviews, if not all reviews like some other sites. I think it would keep people more honest, and also allow for better "business exchange" that you are looking for.
In principle, I agree. In practice, I think it would be a double-edged sword. Some providers would see it as useful feedback, but others would want to control the image the reviews present of them. It would be an interesting experiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitsman
Pick up your balls, run to a hospital and see if they can be reattached!
While I do not disagree with any of your well considered and well written thoughts, please allow me to offer a bit of an alternative view.
If this is indeed to be the Yelp of pussy, and I for one am very cognizant that it is, please additionally deliberate on the understanding that the women here are not corporations or LLC's or any other business entity whatsoever. We are not girded by a phalanx of marketing professionals, investors, or consultants, business intelligence or anything of the sort. We are only just women in a profession with no rules, and often very simple women at that, just doing what we can to provide for ourselves, and in some cases, children as well. When one acknowledges that a woman may cease to be able to put food on the table to feed mouths when the "'showing of respect with honest feedback" turns into abject ridicule, then the lines in defense of "'business feedback" simply must blur and sfumato a bit.
I know Toyz, and I know the intention and the jocularity that backs almost all of his posts (one can get away with something short of murder with me if they are funny) but these things often turn into something entirely different that what the OP may have intended. If the intention was to poke a little fun, well that went awry. If the intention was to bring to light and resolve some inefficacy in a provider's business plan in regards to return on investment, I can assure you it was a resounding failure. The point was solidly missed, not that that should surprise anyone contributing to this thread. If anything it buttressed many providers' rancor and damn near caused a universal raising of rates in solidarity with the women singled out for this "Yelp-ing of the Pussy".
In the contrary, for a reasonably savvy woman with a modicum of business sense learning from both making and entirely losing a considerable fortune (me) it became immediately apparent that this wasn't going to be a learning opportunity for women who may wish to truly hear what her market has to say about her business, but rather a sad social commentary on the baseness, servility, and venality of a scant number of posters here. I posit that if the gentlemen here wish to critique women on their business acumen, and they have every right to do so, we all know there are much better ways to do it. This was not it. This wasn't an open marketplace critique. This turned into a mockery; a shambolic lampooning with just a very few gents who very easily discarded their personal integrity and dignity to participate. I'm speaking with the assumption they had some in the first place. I will concede I'm likely wrong on that point.
If a provider didn't already suffer from crippling fear, self loathing and self doubt, she may well find these types of examinations most propitious to that end. And that says a lot more about the failure of this type of "open marketplace discussion" (if someone could even possibly continue to maintain that is what it was), and the barbarism of some people on this board, than it says about the perceived poor lack of return of any provider in question.
While I do not disagree with any of your well considered and well written thoughts, please allow me to offer a bit of an alternative view.
If this is indeed to be the Yelp of pussy, and I for one am very cognizant that it is, please additionally deliberate on the understanding that the women here are not corporations or LLC's or any other business entity whatsoever. We are not girded by a phalanx of marketing professionals, investors, or consultants, business intelligence or anything of the sort. We are only just women in a profession with no rules, and often very simple women at that, just doing what we can to provide for ourselves, and in some cases, children as well. When one acknowledges that a woman may cease to be able to put food on the table to feed mouths when the "'showing of respect with honest feedback" turns into abject ridicule, then the lines in defense of "'business feedback" simply must blur and sfumato a bit.
I know Toyz, and I know the intention and the jocularity that backs almost all of his posts (one can get away with something short of murder with me if they are funny) but these things often turn into something entirely different that what the OP may have intended. If the intention was to poke a little fun, well that went awry. If the intention was to bring to light and resolve some inefficacy in a provider's business plan in regards to return on investment, I can assure you it was a resounding failure. The point was solidly missed, not that that should surprise anyone contributing to this thread. If anything it buttressed many providers' rancor and damn near caused a universal raising of rates in solidarity with the women singled out for this "Yelp-ing of the Pussy".
In the contrary, for a reasonably savvy woman with a modicum of business sense learning from both making and entirely losing a considerable fortune (me) it became immediately apparent that this wasn't going to be a learning opportunity for women who may wish to truly hear what her market has to say about her business, but rather a sad social commentary on the baseness, servility, and venality of a scant number of posters here. I posit that if the gentlemen here wish to critique women on their business acumen, and they have every right to do so, we all know there are much better ways to do it. This was not it. This wasn't an open marketplace critique. This turned into a mockery; a shambolic lampooning with just a very few gents who very easily discarded their personal integrity and dignity to participate. I'm speaking with the assumption they had some in the first place. I will concede I'm likely wrong on that point.
If a provider didn't already suffer from crippling fear, self loathing and self doubt, she may well find these types of examinations most propitious to that end. And that says a lot more about the failure of this type of "open marketplace discussion" (if someone could even possibly continue to maintain that is what it was), and the barbarism of some people on this board, than it says about the perceived poor lack of return of any provider in question.
Panem et Circenses
I have stayed out of this thread mostly (and quite honestly) because I found it boring beyond belief.
However, with some of Ms V's statements I feel motivated to offer just a couple of tidbits.
#1 I don't apologize for anything I have posted, and surprisingly think there is more of a need of that type of post. I am motivated now to continue... Should commenters take it in different directions, that's the nature of a co-ed open communications board. As I always offer if some don't want to read what I pen, then put me on ignore and save yourselves!
What Ms V, and a few others are MISSING (actually trying to ignore as if it is insignificant) were the VOTES by the actual purchasers of the product. Let that sink in...the actual customers were provided a very liberal range to show how they would spend their hobby dollars...and almost to a man they voted in a median range. I would propose if I put (random example) Tori Cappellis (an Austin legend) on here with her rates, most would grudgingly say "yah, shes damn sure worth it".
Hardly anyone agreed with the posted prices of the girls I chose to copy. Another thing to note is I merely COPIED what they put in their Ads. There was nothing made up. I let them stand on their merit & let the public ink their thoughts.
I am fully aware this is some girls livelihood. BUT THAT DOES NOT IN ANY WAY PROVIDE THEM PROTECTION OF THE PURCHASING PUBLIC FROM DEBATING THEIR NET WORTH AS A COMMODITY. If you are going to advertise it, then you are opening yourself up to having it critiqued...
OF COURSE it is often much more than just an exchange of favors for cash...but at its root and CERTAINLY what Ms V holds out as the primary topic of discourse is the AFFECTING OF THE PAY STRUCTURE moreso than any feelings of hurt pride.
In no way did I say...or really many at all say...that they didn't think the girls in the threads were not worth anything...they said they saw them as overpriced if you want to be honest and put it out there. I actually voted on the high side, but I agree their asking price-vs what was offered-was high.
The fact that you post " If anything it buttressed many providers' rancor and damn near caused a universal raising of rates in solidarity" actually brought ME a bit of humor in this boring football watching night. I would actually challenge those thinking this to go ahead, rolllllll those dice..RAISEEEE those rates....see how many times the phone rings. Like it or not, its a competitive market and solidarity is not something that is likely to occur. And where is the Hoogar Mantra #1 "I have all the business I can handle"? I know if I personally see price inflammation because of a couple of co-ed chat topics, I will shift my funds to others in a show of WTF??? Sorry, my PERSONAL feelings (not speaking for anyone else but myself) is that the prices are capped...I simply won't pay many of the asking rates anymore. And I have companionship anytime I want with a text or two or a PM or two...hell part of the time its ME that gets the text "want some company"? {or an occasional trip to our neighbor to the north where the prices-and I will boldly state-selection is stellar.
I know most of this is posted in some manner to continue to work the "shame on you" angle that EJ launched into last night, but we're all adults here...and there is little shame in the sex trade...so in my very humble opinion its a dangerous card to play...and that's not shaming.
I'm sick of hearing "you should be ashamed" in all of its various guises because some girls are concerned they might not make their top asking rate on occasion because many in the hobby are tapped out by the increasing prices in this market.
And to your final paragraph...as cold as this may sound...If a provider didn't already suffer from crippling fear, self loathing and self doubt, she may well find these types of examinations most propitious to that end If the hobby is too tough to hear criticism of your work (and you want to give up this extremely lucrative endeavor), then find another line of business (not at you specifically Ms V but in general). Cause tomorrow there will be 10 newbies willing to face the slings and arrows to cash that $5 a minute paycheck. Its a competitive industry. But no different from what many of us face at work. Its a job. Want a premium salary? Deliver a premium experience & you won't have to worry about your rate...word of mouth and reviews will carry you.
Its a high turnover business, and this probably makes it no easier I understand. But its not my...or any purchaser of services...job or responsibility to "go quietly into the night with benjamins bursting forth from your pocket". I am personally OFFENDED by some holding out that a couple of threads on a Hoogar board, or questioning prices, might be the trigger to some horrific ending. When the obvious intent is to NOT have any prices, pictures, services questioned by the people that pay for it. Don't insult my meager intelligence with such drivel.
The comments on the threads...even at their worst....were no different than many personal back and forths that go on here. The REASON I feel some girls are offended is more about "I don't want that to happen to me". And "I don't want to have my rates affected" moreso about any feelings for the two who have participated.
If this puts me in a bad light with certain girls, I really.don't.give.a.fuck. Sorry I'm not coming off politically correct but right now I am pissed. You know I think the world of you, but we are very far off on this topic from agreement.
I have ALWAYS operated with a certain financial limit on my personal hobbying. Its more a moral thing than a financial one. I have ALWAYS treated any girl I see with the utmost of respect, becoming close friends with several that have gone way beyond the boundaries of this hobby. That doesn't happen if you are a callous jerk. If I find a girl I like...and I don't think she is worth the rate she asks (most I DON'T find their rates offensive)...I will politely offer a different amount...if she refuses...never any hard feelings & we go on. I'm not doing this for selfish reasons. Honestly the two girls highlighted in the posts that are causing a VERY small but vocal backlash, I have no desire to see & never would. Keep their prices high, lower them, wont matter cause I have no interest myself.
And I am not done with these postings, the only question is...Who will be next? They create interest, and lots of fellow Johns enjoy them....if a MOD thinks I am breaking any rules, I will quit...but to date I have broken no rules nor have I been made aware of any I have broken. I have had very nice off the board convos with a few providers regarding these topics. Very interesting what is said in private vs what is said in public.
Now...off of the soapbox..and am making New Orleans Pralines so have to stir the sugar now....
Expression, Information & Dignity in an Open Marketplace
But no, I have no formal training whatsoever in finance, economics or psychology, so I cannot speak with expert authority on any of those subjects. I’m not even sure I’m using the term behavioral economics correctly. These are just some of the things I learned operating a small business as I think they apply to an admittedly very different industry.
My Bio Page - Texas - Austin
Sorry I'm not coming off politically correct but right now I am pissed. You know I think the world of you, but we are very far off on this topic from agreement.
