I Hate to Agree with Kissinger, But....

[Chung Tran]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

I think FDR refused to accept a conditional surrender or a negotiated settlement in your typical european tradition, unconditional surrender was his requirement.

And the Ambassador to the Court of St. James tried to dictate a US policy of appeasement, while embracing the Nazis. His son later became President.

Tulsi Gabbard agrees with me. I saw her on Laura Inghram tonight, she laid out my ideas to a T.

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by Chung Tran

And the Ambassador to the Court of St. James tried to dictate a US policy of appeasement, while embracing the Nazis. His son later became President.

And your point is???

Isolationism and appeasement lost all appeal in this country on December 8, 1941. Three days later, Hitler declared war on us. The die was cast. Joseph P. Kennedy Sr. and Charles Lindbergh fell into disrepute. Know your history, chungy.

[Chung Tran]

Originally Posted by lustylad

And your point is???

Isolationism and appeasement lost all appeal in this country on December 8, 1941. Three days later, Hitler declared war on us. The die was cast. Joseph P. Kennedy Sr. and Charles Lindbergh fell into disrepute. Know your history, chungy.

No shit, Lusty. But there was a War going on for years before December 7. We were late to the ball game. D Day could have occured a few years earlier.

[lustylad]

Originally Posted by Chung Tran

No shit, Lusty. But there was a War going on for years before December 7. We were late to the ball game. D Day could have occured a few years earlier.

You're nuts if you think the US coulda, shoulda or woulda gone to war any sooner than we did in 1941.

And what are you suggesting anyway? The lesson of WW2 was appeasement doesn't work. Chamberlain's 1938 land-for-peace surrender at Munich only whetted Hitler's appetite. Yet you want to appease Putin in the same manner, trading eastern Ukraine for some ephemeral promises he will behave better in the future?

Know your history, chungy.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by lustylad

You're nuts if you think the US coulda, shoulda or woulda gone to war any sooner than we did in 1941.

And what are you suggesting anyway? The lesson of WW2 was appeasement doesn't work. Chamberlain's 1938 land-for-peace surrender at Munich only whetted Hitler's appetite. Yet you want to appease Putin in the same manner, trading eastern Ukraine for some ephemeral promises he will behave better in the future?

Know your history, chungy.

The problem is that China and India are buying oil from Russia.

Saudi is not increasing production.

So those three seem to be in Putin's corner.

I actually agree that Putin needs to be stopped....I'm just pointing out the difficulty.

How much will the American consumer be willing to pay to defeat Putin?

Because if they are not aware and not only aware but willing to pay more....they will vote in pro Putin politicians, like Trump.

Trumps America first means he does not care about Putin, Europe or anyone else. He will only care about lower oil prices. That means appeasing Putin.

So CT 's point may be "why wait?". Make a deal now.

CT can correct me if my assumption is wrong.

Look...I'm in agreement with you but how will Realpolitik play out.

That is my prediction. If Biden does not appease Putin and oil prices remain high...and Trump runs and he wins, he will appease Putin.

I know that is a lot of if's and ands but that is how I see this possibly playing out.

[texassapper]

Originally Posted by lustylad

I already asked you wtf did Ukraine do to justify being invaded?

LOL. Who the fcuk cares why the Russians invaded. You realize that this is an internal ethnic war that was going on? Let the people of Ukraine, Russia and their neighbors figure it out.

Why do YOU think it's the business of the United States citizens to defend, fund, or in any way come to the rescue of Ukraine? This attitude is exactly why the Middle East is all fcuked up but instead of British interference it's now American. Do you really care if Ukraine is reduced in size by the Donetsk and Donbas? If so why didn't you care when Russia took the Crimean peninsula in 2014?

And if you're so concerned STFU and put YOUR money where your mouth is and join up. www.fightforua.org

Stop writing checks that other people have to cash.

[texassapper]

Originally Posted by Chung Tran

No shit, Lusty. But there was a War going on for years before December 7. We were late to the ball game. D Day could have occured a few years earlier.

So your argument is the US extended the length of WWII because we didn't get involved earlier? Except for the sinking of the Reuben James, how exactly would the US have justified that?

[texassapper]

Originally Posted by lustylad

Chamberlain's 1938 land-for-peace surrender at Munich only whetted Hitler's appetite. Yet you want to appease Putin in the same manner, trading eastern Ukraine for some ephemeral promises he will behave better in the future?

LOL.. But I thought Russia was barely hanging on in Ukraine... how do you expect them to invade Western Europe? LOL

Why did we expand NATO to attempt to include former Soviet Client states in contrast to what we promised the Russian representatives in the early 1990s?

And if you argue those states have the right to decide then don't the ethnic minorities within those states have the same rights?

[Chung Tran]

Originally Posted by texassapper

So your argument is the US extended the length of WWII because we didn't get involved earlier? Except for the sinking of the Reuben James, how exactly would the US have justified that?

No.. I said the War went longer than needed, I didn't suggest the US extended the War. But Kennedy didn't help.

Originally Posted by WTF

So CT 's point may be "why wait?". Make a deal now.

CT can correct me if my assumption is wrong.

Exactly right. I want Putin stopped, but pragmaticsm can't be ignored. At some point (now) we need to pivot, and stop shooting off our face to spite our nose. Make a deal for now, Putin may not last much longer anyway, if CIA reports are accurate. Revisit the deal later, if necessary. Like our fluid Iran dealings. Like our allowance of the Uygher genocide in China. Their refusal to recognize Taiwan's independence. We have to work with these Countries in a global economy. The Saudies. Fuck their damn LIV Golf Tour, but don't fuck their oil. We need it. We need to DEAL.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by texassapper

LOL. Who the fcuk cares why the Russians invaded. You realize that this is an internal ethnic war that was going on? Let the people of Ukraine, Russia and their neighbors figure it out.

Why do YOU think it's the business of the United States citizens to defend, fund, or in any way come to the rescue of Ukraine? This attitude is exactly why the Middle East is all fcuked up but instead of British interference it's now American. Do you really care if Ukraine is reduced in size by the Donetsk and Donbas? If so why didn't you care when Russia took the Crimean peninsula in 2014?

And if you're so concerned STFU and put YOUR money where your mouth is and join up. www.fightforua.org

Stop writing checks that other people have to cash.

JL...are you of the same opinion if it is Israel?

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by texassapper

LOL.. But I thought Russia was barely hanging on in Ukraine... how do you expect them to invade Western Europe? LOL

Why did we expand NATO to attempt to include former Soviet Client states in contrast to what we promised the Russian representatives in the early 1990s?

And if you argue those states have the right to decide then don't the ethnic minorities within those states have the same rights?

This has parallels between Serbia/NATO/Kosovo and Ukraine/Russia/Dontesk-luhansk war.

UKR is getting the Serbian treatment.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by texassapper

And if you argue those states have the right to decide then don't the ethnic minorities within those states have the same rights?

That sounds a lot like a pro choice argument here in this country.

Let the individual decide!

Congratulations

[Why_Yes_I_Do]

Originally Posted by Chung Tran

...Make a deal for now, Putin may not last much longer anyway, if CIA reports are accurate. Revisit the deal later, if necessary. ...

While I should abhor overstating the obvious, but uhhmmm... That is exactly how we got here with Russia and Ukraine in the first place, to wit - making a deal and subsequently ignoring it. Minsk Accords much? Doubling down on stupid again?

[texassapper]

Originally Posted by Chung Tran

No.. I said the War went longer than needed, I didn't suggest the US extended the War. But Kennedy didn't help.

Kennedy didn't keep us out of the war. The Germans sank a US Destroyer at the end of October and the US still didn't join the war in Europe. That's how much the US public wanted to stay out of the conflict.

D-Day could not have been moved up... about the only thing that could have shortened the war in Europe was giving fuel to Pattons third army rather than prioritizing Operation Market Garden. Market Garden should NEVER have gone forward based on photo intelligence... The British airborne forces were facing an SS Panzer Corps that was refitting... totally over matched.

Regardless, the end of the war in Europe was primarily achieved by the Russians on the Eastern front meat grinder. D-Day did nothing more than offer the Germans hope that the Brits and the US would beat them before the Russians did...

[kehaar]

Originally Posted by Chung Tran

No shit, Lusty. But there was a War going on for years before December 7. We were late to the ball game. D Day could have occured a few years earlier.

No, it could not have. Perhaps read some history if you want to use it for learning something.